The Importance of Disability Representation in Children’s Books with Margaret Kingsbury

May 12

Margaret Kingsbury has 14 years of experience in the book industry and is the co-founder of Baby Librarians, a children’s book review website. She’s passionate about inclusivity, disability, and spreading the joys of reading. She’s a regular contributing writer for BuzzFeed Books and Book Riot. Her articles have also been featured in Parents, The Lily, StarTrek.com, and more.

In this episode, Margaret and I chat about:

What is missing in children's books when we talk about disability?
What makes a book about disabilities problematic? How do we think more critically about books - tokenism vs incidental representation
Why do you think this continues to be an area lacking representation?
How does this impact children?
What are your top 3 books that demonstrate disability in a positive light?
How do we think more critically about representation in children's books and how do we model that for children or for people we interact with?

Hanna:
Welcome everyone back to another episode of the My Literacy Space podcast. I'm your host, Hanna. And today I'm chatting with my friend, Margaret Kingsbury. Hello, friend.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Hello. Hi there.

Hanna:
I'm so glad that you agreed to have a chat with me today. I have just loved chatting with you in our DMs, and I know we've never met each other, but I feel like there's just some people that you connect with. And it's really interesting to just have those conversations about books and important topics. And you and I met this past fall in, maybe, I don't know, September-ish, something like that. Just through Instagram, and you and I were book judges for the best of 2021 with the books, the gang list.

Hanna:
And I knew that I wanted to have you as a guest on my podcast. And at that point, I had just started putting all the pieces of the podcast together. And I was like, "As soon as I can start recording and have all these pieces in place." So I'm really thankful that you are able to spend some time with me today. Go ahead and just tell me a little bit about how you got involved with children's books. And I know that you're a contributing writer for Buzzfeed books and Book Riot. And your articles have been in other platforms as well. So just maybe tell us a little bit about your background, and some of the work that you're really most proud of.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Yeah, sure. And before I start about that, I'll just say that I have loved getting to know you, Hanna, through Instagram, and I've made such good book buddies through Instagram.

Hanna:
I agree.

Margaret Kingsbury:
An unexpected delight about joining the Bookstagram communities.

Hanna:
I agree.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So I was working at a bookstore when I started writing for Book Riot, and through Book Riot, I cover children's books and also disability. And I've written about disability through a few other websites like Star Trek. I've covered disability in Star Trek episodes for StarTrek.com. I've written about The Witcher and disability. But I'm really passionate about disability representation in books specifically. And the piece I'm most proud about was a piece I published last year about disability representation in the children's book industry.

Margaret Kingsbury:
And I spoke to dozens of disabled writers and disabled illustrators, and also publishers and editors and literary agents and people in that community. I spoke to a "We need diverse books" representative about the problems in children's books. And why there isn't more disability representation in children's books. And I'm most proud of that article. And it's started a lot of conversations on the internet, although I'm not sure how much is improving. Little baby steps sometimes, but that's the piece I'm most proud of. And I also, like you said, for Buzzfeed Books where I cover mostly adult and young adult, but I also cover disability for them too.

Hanna:
And I think that this is a really great conversation to have. And I think the more that we have it, it begins to unravel that topic a little bit more and bring awareness. Because I think the biggest thing, and one thing that I really like chatting about with my students and their families is, how do we think more critically about what we're reading? And it's not just about, let's just add a picture of such-and-such or say this word, and that covers the bases. Because that's tokenism. And it's just like the pat on your back to check it off the list. We added that demographic in there. What do you think is the reason why, or you can maybe speculate the reason why there is a lack of disability representation in book, and specifically children's picture book?

Margaret Kingsbury:
It is a really complicated question, and encompasses a lot of problems. And I'm going to talk about, I'm going to move through it sequentially. So-

Hanna:
Absolutely.

Margaret Kingsbury:
... with a disabled writer is the socioeconomic issues. So disabled people are twice as likely to live in poverty as non-disabled people. Children's book writing is a hobby for most people. It's not lucrative. There are some authors, but for the most part, it's not lucrative. It's something people are able to do for a variety of reasons. And usually it's harder for people who live in poverty. So there's that to think about. And there's also health issues. There's only so many hours a day a person with disabilities sometimes has, before the brain fog comes in. Yeah. I mean, it's different for different people, so-

Hanna:
Right, exactly.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Want to live here. But for instance, I'm in a book group and one of the members has eight hours a month that she's able to devote to children's book writing. I can do a little bit more than that. I have about six to eight hours a day where my brain is working well. But I work full-time, so there goes six to eight hours. And I'm a parent.

Hanna:
Right, right. Yeah.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So just the ability to write is more limited for a lot of disabled people. But I don't want that to overshadow the systemic ableism within the publishing industry that just permeates every single level. I spoke to authors who were rejected by literary agents because they weren't willing to accommodate their disabilities, or they didn't connect with their characters who were disabled. So there's issues getting literary agents. And I've also spoken to authors who have trouble with the research process of literary agents, or submitting to literary agents. Then there's the problem with editors. I spoke to editors who I think genuinely want disability representation, but they don't exactly know what good disability representation is. So I spoke to an editor who is really passionate about disability representation. She's also the vice president of a major publishing company. And she told me she really likes disabled stories about overcoming disability. This is a stereotype about disability. You do not. Most people do not overcome disability.

Hanna:
Right.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Some people live with a disability, a lot of people embrace their disability as part of their essential identities. And I spoke to a lot of writers who had editors reject their work when they weren't willing to put in disabled stereotypes into their books. Such as, "How about they have this moment at the end where they overcome their disability?" Or "How about the students bully them in this section?" When the writer's, that's not actually how it happens. Or "How about this autistic character have these traits?" Which are stereotypes, and not actually reflective of the autistic writer's personal experience. So I've spoken to four or five writers who have had work outright rejected by editors, because they weren't willing to change their books. And these are children's books, and so there's just at every level, there are people trying to block the books that need to get out there. That are very necessary to get out there. So there's not just one thing to fix.

Hanna:
Yeah.

Margaret Kingsbury:
There's a lot of things to fix, but it needs to happen. Yeah.

Hanna:
And I think that's so good to point out all of those pieces, because they are systemic. It's not just, "Oh, I didn't love this story. So I'm not publishing it." There's a negative light on it. There's a huge misunderstanding as well, on the publishers or the editors or the literary agents. And it's not even at this point, I can't even give a free pass about, "They just don't know." I think they're just now making a choice because financially, it benefits a certain group of people. And they really maybe think that, "Oh, I don't know if everyone's going to be interested in that." And I just think, what does that say to people with disabilities?

Hanna:
It says, "You have limited worth, unless you can do X, Y, Z kind of a thing." And I think that's when we think about, why are they not on our shelves? We often miss the pieces behind that. And we just think we'll just add them in. Just write it or just as an illustrator, just draw something. And I think the other piece that I also really want to talk about today too, is visually, we could add a picture, an illustrator could paint, draw, charcoal, draw, whatever, an image of somebody using a wheelchair or somebody with crutches, or a cochlear ear plant. Does that make the book inclusive or diverse by just having this random character on one page, have something that's a visual disability? I would say no. Tell me what your thoughts are on that.

Margaret Kingsbury:
I am going to have mixed feelings about it. If it's this one page, it's classic with wheelchairs, you will see a kid in a wheelchair on one random page, often dancing, or going up a hill, which is just not going to happen. It's in these really strange scenarios that are so consistent. It's strange in their consistency. It's like, how many random pages of disabled characters dancing are there and why? But, so I do not like that. That is tokenism, but I do see some books. I do like incidental disability. So it's to include a character with a disability, and they're on multiple pages. They're part of the narrative. I'm all for that. I'm all for that. I want more of that, if anything. So intentionality makes a big difference. If you are intentional about your illustrations and including them on every page. And it's not just a token, "Look, I know I'm supposed to have a disabled character, so here they are." So it depends on how-

Hanna:
And I think then, there's also this space that's missing where it's not visible if somebody has a disability or not.

Hanna:
Yeah. How that has to be then included within the text, within the actual writing of the story, because we can be disabled for many different reasons. And it's not always able to be pictured on a page. We really have to have the writing about it. Lots of people have really even talked about lately about the importance of having own voices, writing those books or illustrating. Or at least be involved in the conversation of the writing. So, and what do we call that when we, a consultant, or how... Tell us a little bit about that. Even in children's picture books. Do we throw those books out because they're not written by a disabled person?

Margaret Kingsbury:
I do not think so. So I do work as some at the sensitivity reader for children's books. I've worked with a couple children's book companies, not a whole lot, because I have an invisible disability. And it's not portrayed that often in children's books, because it is invisible. I have multiple invisible disabilities.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So I'm not asked that often, but I have seen books by non-disabled people who use sensitivity readers. And I would say, you need more than one group, because disability is not a monolith. So you need multiple opinions. And I've seen really good books that use sensitivity readers that I thought were great. So I do not think you have to [inaudible] disability. Although I think it's preferred, there has to be more disabled voices out there. I would love to see more disabled illustrators. I would love to see more disabled writers writing either their disability story or a story that has a disabled character in it. Right? Disabled writers should not be pigeonholed to write about their disability every time.

Hanna:
Oh, that's such a good point as well. Absolutely. Because there's a big wide world, and they have more than that experience in the world. That's not their only identity or the only piece that is of worth. What do you think then continues to be an area, then, where we're lacking representation? We've talked a little bit about if you don't have a visible disability that's lacking, because we are not seeing that a little bit. I think we talked a little bit about, a disabled character tends to be on the sidelines or way off in the distance, or just plopped on a page. And you're not quite sure what they're doing there. And you're like, "Okay, great. I see it. But I would love more stories where they are that leading protagonist. They are the story." So any other areas that you can see that might be lacking?

Margaret Kingsbury:
I have three things I want to talk about.

Hanna:
Okay. Excellent.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So first, just in general, even though there are token disabled characters, more disabled main characters in general. So according to the Cooperative Children's Book Center's most recent analysis, they are a nonprofit that study diversity in children's books, and map how many diverse characters are in children's books. Only 3.4% of children's books had disabled characters. 26% of Americans have a disability, according to the CDC. I checked for Canada because I know you're in Canada. 22% of Canadians have disabilities. That is a huge gap. A giant gap, more so than any other diverse character. We're invisible. Whether you have a visible disability or an invisible disability, we're just not in children's books. And we have to be in children's books. So that's the first thing that's missing, is just any of us are in there. But Lucy Catchpole, who is a disability activist on Instagram, and talks about this a lot.

Margaret Kingsbury:
She once said that she'd rather have no disability representation than bad disability representation in children's books. I a hundred percent agree with that. But also, we still need more disability in children's books. Another thing that is really important is intersectional identities in children's books. So disability plus another marginalized identity, like being black or Asian or LGBTQ-plus. More intersectional disability narrative. And I've seen a couple by that. I could count them on one hand. So not very many. So we really need those intersectional voices. And then, I would love to see silly books with disabled characters. There's been a lot of books slightly in the last year or two with LGBTQ-plus characters that are just silly and delightful. Last year, Mr. Watson's Chickens. I do love that book. And this year there's Bathe the Cat, which has two gay dads. And I just love it. And it's hilarious. And those are the books my four-year-old wants to read.

Hanna:
Absolutely.

Margaret Kingsbury:
And over. I can't think of a single book with a disabled... Well, I could think of one or two books with disabled characters in them that are silly. I would just love to see silly, child-friendly books told from a disabled character's perspective.

Hanna:
How do you think that the visibility or invisibility impacts children and their families? We talk a lot about in picture books that we want kids to see themselves represented on the pages, or even as a window into somebody else's experience. To just be like, "They are different than me, and different is great. We can say the word disability, and it does not have a negative connotation to it. And it's not a bad word. This is the facts." So how does this impact children or families or classrooms, when all of that is missing?

Margaret Kingsbury:
So disability is a unique identity. We talk about mirror books a lot, where someone can see themselves being mirrored in a books. If you're a Black child, you can see yourself mirrored in a book or something like that. Disability's unique in that anyone and everyone at any point in their life moves in and out of ability levels, and can become disabled. You're disabled when you get sick. Say you get COVID, you are disabled for that certain period of time. If we were living a hundred years ago, we're both wearing glasses. We would have a significant disability if we didn't wear glasses. Children have asthma and then they grow out of asthma, or they get asthma later. Or they're in accidents and something happens, or they get some sort of disability later. I was on 13 when I got one of my main disabilities.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So people move in and out of disabilities. So when you talk about mirror books, any book with a disabled character could eventually become a mirror book. So it's really important to have these books and to normalize disability, because all of us move in and out of ability levels. And all of us will encounter people who are disabled. 26% of the population. So it's really important to build empathy, both for others and for yourself. And for your own body, and for what your body does, and what bodies do. So it's just really vital to have these characters in books, because they're for everyone. They [inaudible] everyone's experiencing.

Hanna:
Right. Right.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Yeah.

Hanna:
Okay. So then what would be your top three book picks that can demonstrate in a real positive light? Or tell me what you really like about that book.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Okay. It was really hard to narrow it down.

Hanna:
Yeah. I know. We could talk for a long time.

Margaret Kingsbury:
And I narrowed it down to three that I think covered different aspects of disability that I think are important. So number one is What Happened To You? Probably no surprise there, by James Catchpole and Karen George. So it's about a little boy who only has one leg. He's missing one leg. He just wants to play at the playground, and kids keep asking, "What happened to you? What happened to you?" And they're more concerned about what happened to his leg, than playing with him, which is a question that the kid gets all the time. And how annoying is that, when you just want to play?

Hanna:
I think that's a narrative that has been put out there about, "It's okay to ask somebody what happened." That's been celebrated, it's been nurtured. It's been taught to us. It's been reinforced through, there is a book, even with that title. That is a really harmful point of view, to put somebody at moment's notice to divulge their history, of their medical history or a part of themselves. So this book, talk a little bit more about what this book does, because it's brilliant.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Yeah. So it helps begin that conversation of how we should not just ask kids with different abilities what's wrong with them or what happened to them? It's about accepting a person for who they are, for playing with them, for meeting them at their level. And just being kids together, not being invasive. So many times people have asked me, "What's going on with your health?" and stuff. And then I find myself just spouting off information, and then regretting it later, because I didn't want to answer.

Hanna:
"I'm not at the doctor. So let's just have a different conversation."

Margaret Kingsbury:
Yeah, exactly. It's a really great book for parents to start that conversation with their kid in a safe space before the child is shouting at another kid, "What happened to you?" It's a great conversation starter. Also, I think it's affirming for kids who are disabled too, to read a book that's like, "I just want to play." That validates their own experiences. So this is a great beginner book to start the conversation.

Hanna:
I love how James gives a little bit of info on, what do you do if your kid does say that in the grocery store? Blurts out, "What happened to them, Mommy?" or whatever, and just you're going to address it matter-of-factly, it's not making a bigger scene of it. I love that authors are doing that more and more in the back of books. They're adding a little note for the reader, a little bit of extended maybe activity or an extended piece of it. But yeah. Share more thoughts on that.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Yeah, he has questions in the back. And I think they have resources online. And actually I think Allie-

Hanna:
Yes. From Read with River.

Margaret Kingsbury:
... has a lesson guide. To go with-

Hanna:
Fantastic. It's fantastic.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So this would be great to use. It's great for parents. Great to use in schools. I think if there's one book that you're going to read to start the conversation about disability with kids, this is the book that you need to start with. In my opinion.

Hanna:
Why do you think teachers or educators or families might shy away from that conversation? What makes it uncomfortable, or what makes it almost like an untouchable? I'm not sure if that's the right word, but "We're going to ignore that conversation."

Margaret Kingsbury:

I think it's because people are uncomfortable talking about it. They don't know. We don't talk about ableism a whole lot, as a society in general. So what people don't know enough about, they don't want to talk about. They feel uncomfortable talking about it, saying something wrong. And so they either go for that one book that we mentioned earlier, that's so popular, Just Ask, which is by a huge, well-known person. And they do that, and then they never talk about it again. Or they just don't talk about disability at all because it makes them uncomfortable.

Hanna:

Yeah. Yeah.

Margaret Kingsbury:

Which is so strange because like I said, 26% of people disabled, and people move in and out of disability and ability, but people don't think about it like that. There's this stereotype of what a disabled person is. And that's it, that's all people have in their mind.

Hanna:

I've also wondered too, if because there's that stigma and this negative space around disability. If I talk about it, will it make my child recognize it more and then start to ask more questions? And then I really don't have answers, and then gets this a little bit of inner anxiety of, "I only know what I know, and what do I do? Go ask a disabled person to talk to my child?" I think there's this, it can spin a little bit to, "I just don't want to address it because it's going to open up the door to more things." And I think we have to stop being a little bit afraid of those kinds of things, and do our own personal work as the adults. So we have some of those questions, and I think it's okay to say to kids, "I actually don't know the answer to that."

"But when I find the answer, I will gladly share that with you. But that's a really good, thoughtful point that you just brought up." It's okay to say that with kids. We don't have to have all the answers, but don't stop there. But I think that holds people back a little bit is that they don't know, and maybe they think they're going to draw attention to it or give improper information. So they're just like, "I'd rather say nothing because I just don't know what to say." So that's a really good place to start is with that book. Reading the back matter, reading the blog post. They've written a couple of really great blog posts, Lucy and James, on the Catchpoles's website. And Allie did that extension activity. So that's a fantastic book. What's another option that you really love?

Margaret Kingsbury:
And curiosity should be encouraged.

Hanna:
Yes.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Human curiosity. And there's so many resources online for people.

Hanna:
Yes.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Just make sure when you look at resources that they're by disabled people.

Hanna:
Right.

Margaret Kingsbury:
There's some organizations that claim to be disability-friendly and then are not. So I just encourage people to look at disabled voices on their information.

Hanna:
Yeah. I love that.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So another book I'm going to talk about, I think it's really important to have own. I talked about needing more silly books, but also I think it's important to have stories about that really center on a child's experience with a disability. So I have, I Talk Like a River by Jordan Scott and Sydney Smith. And Jordan Scott stutters, and this is about his experience as a child who stutters in elementary school. And talking about an invisible disability. So this is an invisible disability. And it's just a really gorgeous, lyrical book describing his experience, into his emotional situation. And it's just a really emotional, beautiful book. He's nervous about presenting at school. So he asks to go home early, and he had this really meaningful experience with his dad when they talk about embracing who he is and how he speaks.

Margaret Kingsbury:
And then he's able to give a presentation at school. And it uses a metaphor of a river, and talking like a river and talking, go into burbling as it goes over rocks, in jumps and starts. And he's able to use that experience to talk about the next day at school. So I think it's really powerful for kids, and it helps them with empathy to read these very personal stories, people with disabilities. I use this book cautiously because I love this book and I think it's gorgeous. It's perfect. But I think writers tend to get typecast into writing these types of books. If they're going to write a book about a disability, then it has to be a personal story about their disability. So it is really important to read personal stories about disabilities like this. But also I do want more, have different kinds of books.

Hanna:
Earlier, you even alluded to the fact of a lot of children's books really focus on either the bullying aspect, and then everything turned out in the end. Or this fact that despite their disability, they still live this great life. And you're just like, it's also, oh, it's almost pitying. Not just the pitying, but it's also, "Oh, good for you. You are..." And that's also can be just as damaging. So-

Margaret Kingsbury:
Inspirational.

Hanna:
Thank you. Thank you. I was like, "What's the word?" Yeah. The inspirational part of. "You're doing all these things, even though." And that it is amazing. I don't want to ever take away that fact, but they're also living their own lived experience. This is what they know. This is their life, and this is just very normal for them. This is their everyday things that they are doing. So I think I love that we have to have a mishmash of all the different ways that we read about any demographic, because we want to make sure that we have that understanding of all the pieces to it. And it's everyday lives that they're living. What's your third book?

Margaret Kingsbury:
Okay. Yeah. And my third book is one that does have incidental disability. My City Speaks by Darren Lebeuf and Ashley Barron. So in this book, a visually impaired girl who is also a person, a girl of color, she's brown skin, moves through her city with her father and experiences everything around her. So it's just a joyous celebration of her city, and everything she loves about her city. And she just happens to be visually impaired, though it does inform this story. Visual impairment still informs the story. So this is an example of how you can have a character who's disabled on every page be a celebratory story. And this book recently won the Jane Schneider Award, which celebrates disability, the American Library Association's award that celebrates disability. And it was the winner for-

Hanna:
That's awesome. Yeah.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So it's a really beautiful book. I know that they hired a sensitivity reader for this. Neither the author or the illustrator are visually impaired, but they did hire sensitivity readers. I helped Kids Can Press find a disability reader for it. So I think it's just a really pretty story, and shows how vast of possibilities, how many possibilities there could be for disabled characters and stories. That it doesn't have to be specifically about disability. I really love the first two books. What Happened To Me, When I Talk Like a River. But they are very disability-centered, which doesn't have to always be that way. So that's why I wanted to include this book too, because it shows another type of disability experience and disabled character I could see more of.

Hanna:
Yep. I'm going to link in the show notes, those books as well. And also some of your really great blog posts, the one that you did recently about the books with children with dyslexia, really fantastic book choices. And the points that you brought up about it. So I want to make sure, which one of those books do you think was one of your favorites? I love Walk Through the Words, is a fantastic book. Did you have another one that you're thinking of that had a dyslexia focus?

Margaret Kingsbury:
That one was my favorite.

Hanna:
Yeah.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Again, its own voice. It's something about their own experience with dyslexia, and some really fantastic images. And there's a really popular book out in a popular series, Aaron Slater, Illustrator. Where the main character has a disability, and it's just absolutely delightful. I love those books because they are immensely read-aloudable, to listen to them over and over. Also, they have a fantastic rhythm. And I really liked how dyslexia was represented in that book. I don't have details about whether they hired sensibility reader, [inaudible] readers. I keep saying sensibility, but I wasn't privy to that process. And I don't think either the author or the illustrator have dyslexia, although it hid it well. And I thought that book was really, really well done.

Hanna:
I did too. Those are some really great ones. Okay. So the last question, how do you think we need to think more critically about representation as a whole in children's books, and how do we model that for children or other people that we interact with? How do we pass on this information? First of all, how do we do it? How do we think critically? And then how do we model that and show that to other people?

Margaret Kingsbury:
I think there's two steps, and that's empathy, and information. So we have to think with active empathy, of the world around us, of all the different diverse people, and also be informed about what it is to live in a marginalized identity. And listen to those voices of people with marginalized identities. And think of different topics, not just personal experiences, but how does a marginalized identity affect everyday life? And then act on it. We were talking about how you wanted someone who his own voice is on the podcast to talk about disability. Once you actively seeking a way to include disability in your podcast. I think of workplaces that are now making people move into the workspace instead of working remote anymore. You are an employee even if you're not disabled. You could say, "Hey, working remotely is an access issue. And actually can help with accessibility for everyone, if work remotely."

Margaret Kingsbury:
So there's ways that people could stay informed. And I think from the perspective of a disabled person, and practice empathy. And I think when you actively practice empathy and stay informed, you are showing that to your children too. With children, by books by disabled characters. Because guess what? If publishing companies don't see those books sell, they're not going to have more books published with disabled characters. It's sad because a lot of times books with disabled characters don't get the same marketing budget. So the more you buy books by disabled characters, the more likely they're going to get a bigger marketing budget. And the more likely that more books by disabled authors are going to get published.

Hanna:
And the pre-orders are really important too. When you see one of us as a Bookstagram person sharing a book, and we say it's really important to pre-order the book, we're talking. We know that fact because we know that's how many they'll print. If there's only a few people that are pre-ordering it or barely anybody does, they're like, "Oh, I guess the interest isn't really out there." And so that's one way as well. And I also talk a lot about going to your public library, school library and asking them to bring in those books. Because the more people also that are borrowing those books, then the library is knowing that, "Oh, those are the kind of books people are really interested in."

Hanna:
I think gifting those kinds of books with great disability representation to a new family member, or a special occasion. Or to the classroom teacher with a cute little note in the front of it, with the resource from Allie. So things like that really can show other people around you. I think that's just a fantastic way to spread that information and build the empathy. So I love those two points. Thank you so much for spending some time with me today. Do you have any sneak peeks about things that you are writing that you're allowed to tell us that are coming up that you're excited?

Margaret Kingsbury:
I recently posted a young adult list of books with disabled characters a couple weeks ago. I actually think it was last week.

Hanna:
Yeah, yeah.

Margaret Kingsbury:
A couple weeks ago, and [inaudible] ago.

Hanna:
Great.

Margaret Kingsbury:
And it has books coming out this year for adults and young adults, characters with disability. I'm working on my own projects. I have a children's book I'm writing about with asthma representation that I'm excited about. And hopefully, I can get a literary agent for and get that part.

Hanna:
That would be amazing.

Margaret Kingsbury:
So those are some things I'm working on right now.

Hanna:
Love it. I love it. So I will make sure everybody knows where they can find you and connect with you. But thank you again for spending some time with me.

Margaret Kingsbury:
Thank you for having me.

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