Thinking Critically About Children’s Picture Books

Mar 24

Picture books can be a great way to start important conversations with your child. While they're designed for children, the pictures in these books will give you and other parents/caregivers plenty of talking points when it comes time to create intentional discussion around complex topics.

So how do we think more critically about picture books? In this episode, I chatted with my friend Kelly from Inclusive Story Time who has an incredible amount of insight on this topic.

Kelly (she/her) started @inclusivestorytime in May 2019 as a way to keep her family accountable to the picture books on their shelf. When the account began, they really didn’t think anyone would be paying attention. She was just looking for a way to take her family’s deep love of ‘Kid Lit’ and be more critical of what they were consuming.

Today, Inclusive Story Time has grown into a huge community of caregivers and educators that love reading and exploring picture books that they can use with their own children.

Interested in thinking more critically about children’s picture books? Well, I have a good feeling you’ll enjoy hearing this conversation and get insight on just how powerful and complex picture books can really be.

In this episode, you’ll hear us chat about:

Confronting your own personal biases
Being mindful of your language when referring to marginalized groups, make corrections when needed
Taking advantage of small moments
Making intentional pauses while you are reading - talking about the illustrations and the text. “What do you notice?”
Model responses
Reading books that provide opportunities for mirrors, windows, sliding glass doors (Dr. Bishop)
Making your bookshelf inclusive!

Hanna (00:00):

Welcome everybody to episode four of the My Literacy Space Podcast! Today is our first episode with a guest. So welcome Kelly from Inclusive Story Time.

Kelly (00:13):

Hi, my name's Kelly and my pronouns are she/her.

Hanna (00:16):

That's awesome. I'm so glad that you are able to spend some time with me today. We're going to talk today about a really interesting topic surrounding children's picture books. So the title is going to be something about Thinking More Critically About Children's Books. And I want to talk a little bit about how you got started as a Bookstagrammer. Can you tell me a little bit about how you got started, about the "Bookstang Best of" and your podcast?

Kelly (00:45):

I'll give you the whole overview. I started Inclusive Story Time almost three years ago. It was actually a call to action from the Conscious Kid's Instagram account-when the Conscious Kid was only a few thousand followers compared to the massive organization that they are today. Basically, what it said was, "Allow your children to check out as many books as they want from the library, but make sure that more than half of them include people that don't look like them." I was like, "Huh, that's harder than I think it is. " It was a really big aha moment for me. So, I started on this journey of trying to diversify our own home library and to look at it more critically. I started the Instagram account as a tool for accountability, for us as a family.

Kelly (01:42):

For sure, one of my biggest schools, with our home library from the time that I was pregnant, was making sure that we had a lot of LGBTQ representation in our library. I have a big family and I grew up with a gay dad and all of those things, I was like, "You know, this is something that's intensely important to me, that we have that representation." And of course, even today, it's still hard to find, even though there's definitely more choices. So, you know, I got on Instagram, I started this little account. I started connecting with people. I found out that there's a huge community of people on Bookstagram, which I had absolutely no idea when I started.

Kelly (02:28):

I think a lot of us have talked about this in the past, that we all thought we were inventing the wheel, then realized that there was a whole fleet of cars out there before us. You don't even know what's out there until you enter a niche and realize that there's all these other amazing passionate people, doing all these incredible things. I was slowly building up my little wee baby following, and then Ally from read with river sent me a DM out of nowhere. She's like, I'm going to start this group. I was like, I don't know who you are, this sounds like a scam. But you know what? I followed her into the darkness. It was the best decision I've ever made because I've connected with so many people and formed some beautiful friendships- some of the best friendships of my adult life through this.

Kelly (03:26):

Especially the fact that I started with Bookstagram in mid- 2019, then having the pandemic hit, and losing my job in consulting. This has kind of become my life in the most wonderful way. And through that, through the Bookstagang, as it has now called, it was the read with river book club at one point, but it has grown and changed over time. We have started the awards, which have been running since 2019. So, it's the Bookstagang- best of the year list. I, in that first year, kind of took on a bunch of administrative tasks. We've been kind of, Corey from the tiny activists, Ally and myself were kind of the three top judges feels weird today.

Hanna (04:27):

The brain geniuses.

Kelly (04:28):

It's a group project. It's a ton of work, it's super fun. We get hundreds of books submitted every year, on top of our general knowledge of books, as the year goes on because we're all immersed in the world of picture book releases through the year. We vote on them and then the three of us put them into eight tidy categories. It is the thing I'm most proud of doing every single year- when the list is done. I'm just in awe of how many incredible books are out there. It drives me to keep uplifting the new releases because things just keep, honestly, keep getting better. I can't believe how much better children's literature keeps getting.

Hanna (05:18):

Agree. I agree.

Hanna (05:20):

I met you in maybe be, or I've started following you either at the end of 2019 or the beginning of 2020. That was the first year that I was one of the judges. So, 2020 and then 2021. Just being part of that for two years, the way that the books are presented to books to grammars and the way that we get access to them, the kinds of books that are being published are totally different than reading with my own children 25 years ago. So that's been fabulous to see that sort of progression and the evolution in the way that children's picture books are taking off. I am hopeful, even for this year, of just seeing already- we're just going into February and March- it's already kicking off with amazing books being published.

Kelly (06:15):

I already have books that I'm like, it can't get better than this- there's no way. I am thrilled to see this change starting - it's slow. We are really at the beginning of that change, but it's coming and through the Bookstagang, that's what sort of helped to birth the picture book podcast, right? Which again is Ally from Read with River, Corey from The Tiny Activist and myself- just us being absolute complete book nerds for everyone to listen to.

Hanna (06:51):

And I'm here for it!

Kelly (06:55):

We are working on a new season, and we want to talk a lot more about the structure of the publishing industry. How that affects what comes out every single year, how long it takes, the challenges and barriers that are in it- the pluses the minuses and all kinds of things. We are really excited to launch that this year. We put a lot of research into everything we do. Nothing is quick, but we are excited to share that with everyone.

Hanna (07:23):

That's amazing. Your episodes really have been very enlightening. Even just the way that I have learned over the past two years when I thought that I was thinking critically about children's picture books before -I know it was not enough. I only had a tiny little smidgen of my own experience and I was looking at it through my lens of life or my own sort of understanding. I think that's the biggest benefit of being part of a group like the Bookstagang community is always constantly sharing with each other and having that little safe space to ask a question like- “I read this, am I off on this book?” Or- “Is this one as good as I think it is?” I want to talk a little bit about that today because I think it has taken a while for a lot of people to figure out: What does it mean to think critically about what you're reading? How do we do that ourselves as an adult? How do we show our children, whether they're our own personal children or children that we're working with, children in our families- how do we start to share that with them? I know that you have a big, important mission statement on your social media platform, your website and your Instagram. Talking about your name, Inclusive Story Time, maybe a name evolves over time and at the beginning, why did you choose that name and what's your mission in having a platform like that?

Kelly (09:05):

When I chose the name, I was partially going on, what was available, I'll be a hundred percent honest. In hindsight, knowing what I know now, I might not have picked it, but I don't feel like I can change it at this point so here we are, it is what it is. When I first started, I chose Inclusive Story Time because I was looking to diversify our home library and our library choices. When we go to borrow books, in broad ways I wanted more BIPOC representation. I wanted more disability representation. One of the core values at the beginning of the account was about mindfulness and mental health which fell away for a while, but I'm really trying to bring it back into the fold. I wanted better Jewish representation, of all marginalized identities.

Kelly (10:00):

Inclusive was meant to be a very broad term -a little bit of everything and hopefully done well. Now, my interpretation of what was done well in the beginning, I have learned an incredible amount and done that very publicly and stumbled along the way. In 2022, I realize that I am going to cringe at what I thought was amazing two years from now as well. This is part of the journey and if I stop learning, I am not going anywhere. After I started going, I was working on a branding exercise at work. So, I started to try to apply that to the account. After a lot of work and revisions, I came up with raising readers who raise up others because that is truly what I'm trying to do- raise a small human who can center other people's experiences and build empathy for experiences that are different. And understand that they have the space to become whomever they're going to be. If we are not constantly talking about different ways to be a person and exist in this world and be comfortable with who we are, then it's a much harder journey. So, giving as much possible space for that-and that's something that could come in the toys we play with, that comes in the books that we read, that comes in the way that we talk and intentionally use language, and talk about why referring to something in a different way might be important. Even this morning, we were talking about Lunar New Year, and they said Chinese New Year. And I said, yes, someone who is Chinese might refer to it as Chinese New Year, but a better term. That includes all the different places that celebrate that holiday would be Lunar New Year. This was when snow pants were being put on to get out the door to school in the morning. These are just small conversations, but they stick in a kid's brain-they think about it. So, that is where the entire mission came from. In terms of this journey of thinking more critically about books, one of the biggest things that I tell people is you need to look at your own bookshelf and evaluate what's there right now. It's not about just like amassing every single book I say with like 1000 books, but auditing our own home library was one of the most key things I ever have done. It's a constant process that I go back and I'm like, not loving the message of that one right now. When you open a book, truly thinking critically about evaluating books, you can sit down and read a book. You just listen to the little, tiny voice in the back of your head. Is that how I would want to be described? Do I think that the illustration is maybe based on a stereotype? Who wrote this book? Does their identity align with the content of the book? Who illustrated the book? Does their identity align with who is being illustrated? Are we only learning about this culture through the lens of holidays only?

Hanna (13:47):

Right. That's a huge one. Because we tend to think that this is the trending type of book I need to be reading or just showing it. Maybe you're not even actually really reading it and ingesting the actual information or you're not taking the action to do something about it. It just becomes a cute story. It is not about it becoming the next bad or the next trendy book or- oh, the illustrations are just so beautiful, cute story. It's really that these stories are impactful, and they are meant to bring change within and then take it without. That's the biggest thing has been the difference in what I've seen the shift, even with people sharing picture books. It's no longer like, oh, Jack and Jill. You know, like it's not just this cute little story and those, there is a place for those. I share those as well. However, it's the really the thoughtful pieces. I love how you said thinking about is this how I would want to be represented? Is this the picture that I would want to be seen on the page of myself? If I was in that group of people, is this what I want to learn about and really take the time, rather than just taking it at face value to do a little bit of the extensive research. And I think that for me, that really adds to the story when I hear the background information. A lot of books now, including back matter in the back of the book, the author, it takes a note, or the illustrator adds a little piece in about something personal that makes the voice really kind of jump out loudly or ring in my ears for a bit of time. There has been a lot of books, even when we were judging all the books, even in 2021, where I just had to sit with a book for a long time. I'm not used to doing that. Like I devour books- I see a book and I have to share that. And I've had, I didn't feel that need in 2021 to do that because there was this shift internally where I was like, before I put that out there, I'm going to sit with this for a while and just kind of contemplate what is the message then if I share this, that sort of not just being attached to my brand, but also like saying like, do I agree with that in two weeks, three weeks, this has to be there for a long time, or I need to unlearn it and reshare it and tell people why I've changed my mind.

Kelly (16:17):

And that's a huge thing. I think that going back and saying, you know, I've shared this before and I now don't agree with X, Y, Z in that, or I have learned more now is a huge piece. And, you know, there is a difficult element as an adult evaluating picture books of confronting our own biases. Because we all, it's impossible as a human, you have bias. There's no way to avoid that. We all have our own experience and that creates our own biases. But if we're not constantly confronting those, then we're not going to grow as a person. So sometimes I read a book and I think, this book is not written for me and that is okay. But do I have the authority then to write about this book that wasn't written for me, it's not resonating with me. Do I have the authority then to write something on the internet about this book?

Hanna (17:14):

Yeah.

Kelly (17:14):

And sometimes the answer is no. My opinion on this absolutely does not matter. I don't need to add to the discourse. It's a beautiful book-it's not written for me. My opinion on it really doesn't matter. Sometimes I read a book and I think, this isn’t for me, but this is so important and nobody's talking about it. So, let's go and then let's uplift somebody else that belongs to their community and say, this is what they've written about. You need to go talk to them about it, listen to what they have to say about it. It's not all about us and that would be the whole thing. It's not necessarily about you. That's what I'm trying to teach my five-year-old.

Kelly (18:04):

It's not always about you. It's a process. It's a huge process. I am constantly confronting biases and going, why don't I like that? What's the reason I don't like that. Or why do I love that? What's the reason that I love that. What is that upholding something negative? That just makes me feel good because of who I am.? That's a process that never ends and growing in that practice and writing down your thoughts privately before you go and blast them on the internet, it’s an important step.

Hanna (18:43):

Yeah. I think also, maybe surrounding yourself with people that you can kind of be accountable to.

Kelly (18:49):

Absolutely.

Hanna (18:50):

Like checking in and saying, okay, I just read blah, blah, blah, book. These were my thoughts. You know, tell me, challenge me. What are you thinking about it? How do I, because sometimes we think, oh, that book really aligns with what I believe, or that aligns with my viewpoint of the world, and we get stuck there. And that's kind of what, even with my students, I see that even a seven- or eight-year-old is very much already grounded in a very structured belief system. I'm not their parent, so I can't, force my beliefs on them. But coming up with ways that I can share a book and then say, what are your thoughts about that? Let's really think about that in a different way than just a black and white issue. Even really questioning myself and having surrounded myself with people that I can say, okay, this aligned with what I've thought- thought being in the past tense. Now I'm thinking a different way. And my evolution of thinking has, I think, made me a better book reviewer, made me a better human being, a better person- just because I've stopped and thought before I just impulsively acted.

Kelly (20:05):

And there's so much nuance. There is this impulse to feel that everything is very binary, black and white ones and zeros, on and off, good and bad. I just don't think that that's the case almost ever, right?

Hanna (20:23):

Yes.

Kelly (20:25):

Obviously, there are universally bad, and those are things that harm other people. But there is a lot of nuances when your account for people's personal experiences, when your account for different ways of using a book. I still will say, what a community has said that XYZ book is very harmful. So, and, you know, I'll use a popular example of like, just ask yes. The disability community has come out and said this book is not helpful to us. It's causing us harm because it's advocating for people to put a lot of labor on us. The issue becomes that we need to, as non-disabled people, we need to use our voice and say, hey, they've said this and listen to them. Use that to try to get the people that are still very attached to that text to listen. It is not a universally bad thing that the book exists and should be banned. That isn't what we're saying. We say this isn't really a great book for reasons of harm to the disability community. It can still exist, and people can still go. Hmm. I read that and I understand that critical discourse around this book, nobody is saying to ban the book. The issue then becomes when the whole attitude is turned around and the first books to be banned are generally when you look at the history LGBTQ books. Following that we get into any book that's about race in any way or in new times just featuring somebody that is black indigenous or a person of color that can be enough to ban a book now. Those are major issues. I know that it's a lack of nuance. I know that it's hatred for sure. It's a lack of critical thought and education that leads to people wanting to ban books like this because the excuse that’s out there is that they're banning things that make people uncomfortable when they read them. Well, why are you uncomfortable? And that's confronting bias - confronting why you feel uncomfortable. You are uncomfortable because of the inherent bias and you're seeing another viewpoint and going, Ooh, stop pump the brakes- it's so important to feel uncomfortable. That has been, I would say, one of the biggest journeys of my entire life and just with even recent things going on, with Maus by Art Spiegelman being banned in Tennessee right now that book for me, when I was like 10 years old, it was gifted to me, by a caring adult who thought there's something in there that wants to make a difference. I read those graphic novels and they changed my life. I understood what the Holocaust was, but I didn't understand what really happened. It's something that I was able to connect with as a child who changed who I am and how I speak up. When you ban books like that, you ban the opportunity for people to grow into adults that can have that level of empathy. So, therefore I'll never stop. I'll never stop. I think there's very few things that are as important as raising people to be whole adults that have actual empathy for people that are not the same as them. Who have mirrors, you know, if we're going to talk about Dr. Bishop’s windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors, it’s having that mirror means that they can validate themselves? I can't say it enough. How important it is and how I hope that I have a completely different opinion on many things and keep growing in the years to come.

Hanna (25:10):

Yeah. That's the critical piece. The biggest piece is where you are today or yesterday is not where we should be. In the future, we are going to be learning brand new things where we must literally unlearn something that we used to believe was true. Something that we used to think like that fit the box that made sense to us. And now we know something much different. And I want to just come back to you because maybe not everybody listening knows what Dr. Bishop's analogy of the mirrors, windows, and sliding glass doors. So, she came up with this, this analogy of when we're looking at content around us that the mirrored content needs, we need to be able to see ourselves reflected in the pages in media, on the screen, on the radio- different places We need to have voices and literal pictures, visual images of who we feel that we identify as, who we are as a human being. That's important for us as a personal text to self-kind of a connection, but also as a window where we get to see a glimpse into somebody else's lived experiences. Their lives of what living in the world as their person feels like and looks like. And then I think a lot of people stay at the windows and mirrors and they forget the part about the sliding glass door, which she really wanted as an invitation to like to move yourself out into the world and become a co-conspirator like become an ally, become somebody who not just sees it in themselves and says like, I need to advocate for myself, sees it in somebody else. Oh, okay. Now I need to advocate for them. What does that look like? How do we get advance? So, in thinking about what we've been talking about, critically thinking about books as adults in a different way, how do you think, and I've got some thoughts on this too. How do you think we, and how are you doing it maybe too, as well for teaching a little person, how to think critically, you know, I love the example that you're saying, you know, it's not just sitting down for an hour of structured time and it's this lecture for a five-year-old, but putting on the snow pants and it's like, Hey, you're right! Lunar New Year is the way that we refer to all the groups who celebrate the new year. Tell me what are your thoughts, how do we encourage that in little ones?

Kelly (27:41):

I think it's just as important to read more non-fiction, or non-fiction adjacent books that are talking about facts and history, and all those things, as it is to read books that have incidental representation in them where it's a story about anything, something silly even. But the people or the situation or the thing going on is, is outside of the cisgender/heterosexual white experience. So that's one big thing. But the second big thing, I think it's small moments, is what I always refer to them to- it's when you're reading you go, “What do you notice in that photo or that illustration?” Just asking what do you notice? It could be, “What do you notice about what she's wearing? There is a character named Max, do you think Max is a boy or a girl or non-binary?” There are all kinds of ways that the conversation can go, and you can talk about pronouns quickly, but we're talking one minute in the middle of a story. They build over time and they create an impression. Because a 3, 4, 5-year-old, you sit them down for 30 minutes about pronouns, they're going to be like, whatever, I'm not listening to you. There's a reality to the intellectual level of the child that you have in your care that you are reading to. You know as a parent or a caregiver your child best. You know as an educator; you know your class or student well enough to understand their comprehension level of different concepts. You know it's working within that and not making it scary. It's approachable and normal. I think a lot of people talk about acceptance and I really want to push a line of normalization. It's not just you can do that over there and I accept it and that's fine, but it's not for me. It's Sue and Sally got married last week. Isn't that great? That's normalization. Not, oh don't talk about it in front of the kids. That's not truly changing how we speak about people with different experiences right. Potentially our own.

Hanna (30:29):

Yeah.

Kelly (30:29):

It's being intentional about how you speak about different people within earshot and even not in earshot of children. It is confronting your own personal biases so that you then can go, why am I talking about this topic this way to my child? How does that benefit them and how does that benefit others? It's taking those small moments when you're reading to point out things in the illustrations; picture books are so powerful in their ability to create an immersive experience. There's so much power in the illustrations. There is a lot to be said about the diversity. We talk a lot about the diversity of authors, but the diversity of illustrators needs to be way bigger and broader. Because that's the only way that we're going to truly start to bring a next-level representation that is accurate and true and real and loving for children to see.

Hanna (31:37):

Absolutely.

Kelly (31:38):

It's just taking the opportunity, not shying away when you hear that little thing that they've said right. When you're reading and they point out something in an illustration and you're not so sure. Maybe we should just talk about that for a minute. Just stop the story for a moment and have that quick conversation and then move on.

Hanna (32:03):

Okay. I'm hearing you say, and I wholeheartedly agree, number one -Confront those biases, your personal biases so that when you're having conversations or you're operating in the world, those little people we are modeling what is going on. I watched what was modeled to me for the first 30 years of my life. It was different from what is real.

Kelly (32:29):

Yeah.

Hanna (32:30):

I know modeling and watching adults around you is impactful. Confronting our own biases, the language that we use is key. I'm going to further that by even purposely, when we hear kids misgender somebody, or we are not sure, but we hear an absolute, there are no absolutes there. Like we've said, You, I, and Corrie did a great Instagram live a while ago about books that are beyond the binary. Thinking about that, which I think a lot of families don't always, I'm not going to say like accessibility. There are lots of different meanings for that. I just mean sometimes the information of books that are out there, they're not sure will, what kind of a book, what does that look like? Let's face it most of the books are about straight white little kids or animals- not even people.

Hanna (33:30):

They're not even about real human people. We've tried to sort of tone the message down or make it a cuter message by adding it that it's a,

Kelly (33:39):

That's a whole topic.

Hanna (33:42):

That's the kind of thing that I think people need. The more information we put out there, that's where we can confront our own biases. I never stopped to think that most representation of this group or that content subject matter is by little animals. So, what does that say to a kid- that they can't exist in the world as a human because they are only animals?

Kelly (34:16):

And this is one of the things that I talk about when you're evaluating like a home library or a classroom library. I'm going to plug it because it will already have been out by the time this episode comes out, but I'm working on a list with my friend Sue Anne Hall, who is an amazing parent and champion of literacy in Ottawa, Canada, and a trusted kid’s advisor for Indigo, our big book box bookstore in Canada. We are working on a project for February, for Black History Month. You will be able to access this now, about Canadian black history books.

Hanna (35:00):

Amazing.

Kelly (35:00):

When you often think there's almost none-and now I've done the work and there is almost none. It's ridiculous to even think about. Our entire country, which has a significant black population, has almost no books about their history.

Hanna (35:24):

I own, I found one last year, like one.

Kelly (35:30):

There's probably about 20.

Kelly (35:33):

I can put a number on that now. There is probably about 20 that are still in print that are not offensive - which would be the other piece of the puzzle. That are representing an actual true and window and mirror that is respectful. We are working on that project right now, and I am excited to release it because there has not been a comprehensive list like this. There is a few of them that are older, but nothing up to date. I'm also hoping that I can use this as leverage to talk to publishers and say look at this gap- people want this. Give it to us. Children all over the world deserve to learn the history of amazing black Canadians. It's not just something for Canadian children.

Hanna (36:34):

Absolutely. Okay. We talked about the small moments, we talked about really looking and being intentional about asking specific questions when we see the illustration. Let's talk about exposure, getting those lists out there to people. This is just critical. When we put out the best of 20, 21, books and we came up with the categories- that have been something that most of my followers needed. I didn't know where to find the books. I think that's a great space that we're in - we take the time to do that. We are intentional about reviewing those books. Those that list, I'm going to put in the show notes and give me that link when you're finished. I will put that about the Canadian black history. I know the black teachers of Alberta have posted something about that the other day, which is an excellent resource as well. I'll put some of those resources where you can…

Kelly (37:36):

Send you a couple resources as well. But again, we're talking about a very small handful of resources. This is something everyone can do. And I think that's one of the things that I really try to drive home. If you have one friend, you can influence someone.

Hanna (37:53):

Yep.

Kelly (37:53):

You don't have to have a bazillion followers on TikTok or Instagram, Facebook, or whatever to influence somebody to try to do better. From there it's amplifying the voices of people. Their own lived experiences, which include difficult history, but also so much joy and creates that joy over top of the trauma. Giving them space to be wonderful, joyful, normal, boring, perfect people as they are. None of this is worth it unless we are giving space to other people. So that is like a core tenant of how I approach everything that I do.

Hanna (38:50):

We could talk for hours, and hours and I will get you to come back for another episode where we can talk about some of those other key topics that we kind of like touched on. But if I ask you, what is your favorite book from 2021? I know what it is, but I want the people to know what it is as well. What are you looking forward? Is there a certain book that you've just seen for 2022 or maybe two titles that are coming for 2022? A favorite book from 2021 and highly anticipated publishing.

Kelly (39:31):

I have so much trouble with anticipated books and choosing them, but I favorite book from 2021 is granddad's camper. Hands down. In previous years, I've never been able to answer that question because everything is amazing. I never want to answer it, but that book just, it crawled right into my soul. You can read my review for it. I bet Hannah will link that in the show notes.

Hanna (39:58):

Definitely.

Kelly (40:00):

It’s just such a gorgeous book and it does so many important things I can't even describe. The representation in it is beautiful of an older generation, which is so trailblazing for the community of today. And I just love it. So, in terms of like highly anticipated books for 2022 coming out in a week is Bathe the Cat for chronicle books. It is the funniest thing I have ever read. There is no book that makes our entire family howl and laugh until cheeks hurt like that book. Oh gosh, I don't even know. There are so many good books coming in 2022. Love, Violet- that one that I absolutely adore.

Hanna (40:49):

I don't cry or get very emotional when I read a children's picture book, but that one, as they say got me in my feels, it's just so good.

Kelly (41:00):

Olu and Greta are coming out in a couple of weeks is good.

Hanna (41:06):

Okay.

Kelly (41:06):

Simple, gorgeous and beautiful. It's about cousins that live in Italy and Nigeria, I believe. It's just fantastic. Love it, love it. Highly recommend.

Hanna (41:21):

Okay. So final questions. How can we as a community support you -this is a serious conversation for lots of Bookstagrammers because this is not a paid job. You and I can attest to the fact that it takes a lot of thought. I could only scarcely make an estimation of how long it would take to put out a good post. Sometimes it's up to an hour and thinking about, you've read the book, maybe you've requested it. Maybe you've heard about it somewhere. Now you're going to research the author and the illustrator. You've read it a hundred times to really get an understanding of it. Now you're going to take the pictures. You're going to write a post about it. Now you're going to comment with everybody.

Kelly (42:08):

Then there's all the ones that you don't see. All the work that goes into those. I would say on average, a post takes me around two to three hours-including all the research that I do. Through the entire process, cumulative it's around two to three hours. Ways to support Bookstagrammers, I would say ways to support me are probably pretty like supporting everybody else. I'll kind of talk about me, but if you have a favorite influencer or Bookstagrammer, ask them if they have affiliate links because we may only earn 10 cents, but it adds up, it is a big deal. It makes a difference. It makes a difference to my family. We deeply, deeply appreciate it. You can also ask if somebody has a tip jar or buy me a coffee or a button of some kind, just drop them a couple of bucks to go buy a coffee. The very few times that I get those little donations of five bucks my whole day is made; it gets me on a high for like three days. Beyond that, listen to the picture books, and the podcast. Tell your friends about us, tell your friends to follow us, hit share on our posts. On a personal note, I also do some consulting on the side. If you are a librarian or a teacher or a school board, if you are a professor- I've done presentations for early childhood education classes. I try to approach everything from a way of being as accessible and easy to understand and non-confrontational as possible. Everybody has a place where they need to start, and we shouldn't shame people that haven't made it as far as we have. We all need that space to continue to learn or start to learn. I also do consulting with picture book authors or illustrators to look over their work. We will have a little zoom meeting and we will talk about it. I do those on a case-by-case basis. I don't take on everything people approach me with, but I love doing it because it's talking to people directly. I have a sliding scale, so it's not overwhelming or overly expensive.

Hanna (44:27):

Okay. And we will put all the ways that we can con connect with you and contact you in the show notes. Any last thoughts?

Kelly (44:35):

I just think that reading is amazing, and you know, there's no other books are like this way to travel to another universe or even just different parts of this universe. I just think that I know what books did for me in my personal childhood and growing into what I became. I just think that children everywhere should be afforded that opportunity. Providing opportunities to access libraries and free books and all those things is vital.

Hanna (45:07):

Absolutely. I also wanted to let families know as well, check out little free libraries in your community. Check out your public library. In most places, it's a free library card. Check out schools that are, you are giving books away. There are lots of places and I want to make sure, and I know you do as well, that we continue to find those places. I'm going to be sharing in some other podcasts coming up about different ways that we can make books more accessible to kids. So, thank you so much for your time and have an awesome day. Talk to you soon.

Kelly (45:43):

Thank you. Bye.

Follow Kelly on…

@inclusivestorytime
https://www.instagram.com/inclusivestorytime/

Check out Kelly’s Website:

https://inclusivestorytime.com/author/inclusivestorytime/

Check out Kelly’s Podcast

Picture Bookstagang Podcast

https://inclusivestorytime.com/podcast/

Maus by Art Spiegelman
https://amzn.to/3IENHCp Amazon US

Dr. Bishop’s windows, mirrors and sliding glass doors

https://humaneeducation.org/windows-and-mirrors-and-sliding-glass-doors-ensuring-students-see-themselves-and-others-in-literature/