How to Support Your Dyslexic Child with Dr. Lauren McClenney-Rosenstein

Jun 22

Dr. Lauren McClenney-Rosenstein’s passion for educating, advocating, and bringing awareness to dyslexia at the domestic and international levels began in the elementary classrooms of private schools serving students with language-based learning disabilities. She has been a certified Special Educator for a decade, and she earned her Doctor of Education in Teaching, Learning, Leadership, & Curriculum in 2019 from Northeastern University and holds a dual masters in Special Education and Elementary Education from Syracuse University and a Bachelor’s degree in Psychology from Syracuse University. Her dedication to providing the gold standard of instruction to individuals with dyslexia led her to obtain her endorsement at the Associate level through The Orton-Gillingham Academy in 2014.

Eventually, she expanded her skill set in the public schools as a 7th and 8th grade math and English Language Arts (ELA) co-teacher before taking a position with a non-profit organization that advocates for inclusion in public schools for students with disabilities. Currently, Dr. Lauren is a middle school learning specialist and instructional coach at a private school while also the CEO of Think Dyslexia.

In this episode we’ll chat about:

What dyslexia is
Red flags parents should be looking for
How parents can support their child with dyslexia
How young children can be to get a diagnosis
Why it's important to not just “wait and see”
Resource books for parents to read

Episode Transcript

Hanna:

Welcome everyone to another episode at the My Literacy Space Podcast. I'm delighted to talk with my friend Dr. Lauren today, and we're going to talk all about dyslexia. Welcome Dr. Lauren.

Dr. Lauren:

Hi Hanna. I'm so excited to be here. I just love all of the work that you do, and I'm just so happy to have a conversation with you.

Hanna:

Well, it's wonderful to be able to connect on Instagram and people don't understand how many conversations we have sort of outside of a podcast and it's not just even leading up to a podcast, our community of literacy people are like, we really try to be connected and we're asking each other questions and here read this, what do you think about this? I've asked you questions before. It's just such a great community because I think everybody for the most part is not super cliquey.

Hanna:

And I think a lot of other spaces can be a little bit like, well, they're the expert, whatever. And I think I really like how most of our community is quite just loving to each other and supportive and cheering each other on, so I love that. Tell us a little bit about your background and we'll talk a little bit about dyslexia today.

Dr. Lauren:

Yeah, sure. So first things first, again, thank you so much, Hanna, for having me. And I would 100% agree with you. I do feel like the reason that this community is not so cliquey is because we're all fighting for the same thing. It's like literacy is a civil right. Kids should know how to read and write and be articulate and love what they're consuming. So why would we be cliquey about that? So I just had to state that because it's just fantastic connecting with so many amazing people on Instagram, in this science of reading community.

Dr. Lauren:

So about me, let's see, I always have a quick elevator pitch. I will summarize my career of 11 years. I guess this is going on year 12 actually I think, yeah. So I started off my career in a private dyslexic school and I think that's so important for me to explain that because most teachers needing either undergrad or grad school are ready to teach, they're ready to make a difference, but they don't realize that they don't have the tools and resources to understand the science of reading or structured literacy, especially if you're going in as an elementary educator.

Dr. Lauren:

And so I went to Syracuse University, which is very big in inclusion and their cutting edge with special ed and philosophies and all that. But I didn't know anything about dyslexia. And we took autism courses and other courses in learning disabilities, but nothing about dyslexia. So when I started my career in this school and I have to shout out to Swift School because if I didn't work there, I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing now. And so I basically learned what dyslexia was. I learned that it was language [inaudible 00:02:58]. So sorry. Siri is trying to get into the conversation.

Hanna:

Welcome Siri.

Dr. Lauren:

Yes, Siri. Basically I learned what Orton-Gillingham was. I learned what dyslexia was, and not only did I understand it was language based learning difference, I understood that it impacted the child holistically. And so you really needed a structured, explicit, systematic approach to rewire the brain as we've talked about a lot in our community. I worked at Swift School for three years as a fourth grade teacher, I gained so much knowledge, trained with the Orton-Gillingham fellow.

Dr. Lauren:

I became certified through the academy, which I know that is very important to state that so many folks can be certified to Orton-Gillingham, but going through the academy is a very rigorous process. And those of you who are going through it or have gone through it will appreciate the fact that I was deferred the first time I did it. And they only accept applications twice a year. So it was the kind of thing, like once I got that rejection, I was like, "Oh my God, what am I going to do?" Obviously I got back on the wagon and I was like, "I'm going to get in this academy, because this is my mission in life."

Dr. Lauren:

I was there for three years in the suburbs of Atlanta and I'm originally from Maryland, so I really missed my family. I came back home. I worked at another specialized private school in Washington, DC, which I always call the Harvard of neurodiverse schools because the tuition was crazy. But the kids, it was magical place for these kids. I mean, in my class I had about 15 kids. I had my own occupational therapist, my own speech language pathologist, my own social worker. And it was amazing to see what a team of professionals and service providers can do to help these neurodiverse children that have comorbid disabilities.

Dr. Lauren:

I taught third, fourth grade for a year there. And then I said, "You know what? I want to see what public school's all about." I went to public school and that was really when my eyes were open. The teachers did not know what dyscalculia, dysgraphia or dyslexia was. And so I was in secondary school. I did seventh grade and eighth grade for three year, well, four years total. But I co-taught English language, arts, math. And I did a resource math class. And the IEP meetings were brutal sometimes because I would ask questions and say, "Why does this IEP just say SLD, why doesn't it say dyslexia?"

Dr. Lauren:

Parents were like, "What is SLD?" Teachers were like, "What is this?" So that's when I really realized like the red tape. And I was like, "This is kind of crazy." So while I was in public school, I was working on my doctorate, got married, had a family. It was a lot. Then I decided I want to make a greater difference out of the classroom. And so I worked at a nonprofit for a year and there I did kind of administrative work technical assistants. We'd go to different school districts and their mission focused more on inclusion, which really is a part of my philosophy.

Dr. Lauren:

But I mean, literacy and dyslexia and these language based learning differences are really more of my expertise, my area of, it's my passion area. So the pandemic hit and I realized I really wanted to go back to a school, but I didn't want to be a teacher. So I wanted more of the administrative role. So I recently just left my school of two years, it was another private school, just a preparatory K through 12 school where I was a learning specialist.

Dr. Lauren:

And what I did there was I did professional development for teachers. I did instructional coaching and did PDs on dyslexia and in other learning disabilities really. And then I coached parents and then I supported students and then I would go to administrative meetings. So during that time, I realized I really want to be able to do what I want to do without having my hands tied by any school. And so Think Dyslexia has been around on Instagram for about two years and I didn't actually make it an LLC until October.

Dr. Lauren:

And so I just left the classroom, two, three weeks ago, and now I've been working on my own entrepreneurial journey and I'm so excited to just be able to support parents and students and schools and all of that in a way that I don't feel like my hands are tied and I can really speak freely and I have resources and all of that, so that was my summary. A couple of, now I'm going on 12 beers.

Hanna:

That's awesome. So tell me then when you're giving these discussions, because this is a comment or a question that comes up quite often, is dyslexia a disability?

Dr. Lauren:

I got to tell you Hanna, that it depends on who you talk to.

Hanna:

Right. And this is what ... yeah.

Dr. Lauren:

It really does. I mean, it's just, so we think of society wants labels and identities and are you this, are you that, and sometimes you can't put people in a box, right? I've spoken to adults where I would say, "Do you call it a disability? Do you call it a difference?" And some folks will say, "No, this is a disability." And given their story, they're like, "Well, I dropped out of high school and I did this." And they're like, "This disabled me from doing, from being my best me. But if I was diagnosed at six or whatever, maybe it would be a difference." So from my experience of research that I've done in interviews, I've done with people, I think it really depends on what their story is. So I use it interchangeably. I say disability and difference because I never want to offend anyone.

Hanna:

Right. So what is the biggest definition or what are some of those like if parents, if we can talk to parents right now, what are red flags that parents can be looking for? Because I think that that's a big piece to it is that we kind of sometimes have this wait and see approach. And we'll kind of as parents, we're thinking, well, that's the school's specialty area. That's the school's role in the education piece. But as we're finding out, if educators don't know the pieces and the red flags and how to kind of look for little signs, we are missing, their almost schools are almost doing the let's wait and see. I know in Canada we don't even do a psychoeducational assessment until at least grade three, maybe grade four to see if there's something-

Dr. Lauren:

Wrong.

Hanna:

... wrong in air quotes, right. And so I think we know we can catch them way before grade four. By the time we get to grade four, that gap is immense and it's trying to compound bigger and bigger. So first of all, let's talk about exactly what dyslexia is and then what would red flags be that parents can look for even before kids get to school or the beginning stages of education.

Dr. Lauren:

Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with everything you just said, early intervention is key. I mean, key, key, key screeners, intervention. If you have any sort of inkling, just delve right in, don't wait and see, that's just never good approach. So in terms of the definition, I'm going to summarize this. I always direct people to IDA, the International Dyslexia Association. They have a huge paragraph of a definition.

Dr. Lauren:

What's important to know is this is how the brain is wired. So dyslexia is a specific learning disability that is neurobiological in origin. So neurobiological meaning it is happening in your brain. It's the wiring and it's biologically there. I mean, there are various types of dyslexia, which I've talked about this on my page. More than often it's hereditary, but it could be because of a brain injury, could be because of maybe a baby was born prematurely.

Dr. Lauren:

I mean, there are different reasons, but more than likely if a child is dyslexic, a parent or a grandparent is probably dyslexic as well. So with that being said, it's so important to know this does not go away. I've talked to parents who've been like, okay, so now that my child's had Orton-Gillingham, good, right. It's like, no, I don't know how to tell you. And I try to say with love, it's how your child sees the world.

Dr. Lauren:

The best way to kind of relate that is if you think about the autistic brain, I feel like autism, I mean, I took courses on that when I was in grad school and it's a spectrum. Dyslexia is a spectrum. So while someone is severely dyslexic, someone may not be as dyslexic, that doesn't mean that they're fixed. Nothing is needing to be fixed. And I think that's where the difference part comes in, where you just see things differently.

Dr. Lauren:

And so if you look at it as the brain's wired in a different way. And what's important to know is the interventions just help get those neurons to fire in a way where the typical brain has these three areas that light up because they've had research with what, FMRIs and MRI. And so when you do something like Orton-Gillingham or multicentric approach, then you're creating those neuro pathways that get them firing. And that helps the working memory to retrieve that information. I know I just rambled, but I just had [inaudible 00:12:23].

Hanna:

No, but I think that that's sometimes the definition is either too obscure or not. Especially if we give it from a certain point of view, we miss the basis of it, right. That summer where we kind of have to get into the little nitty gritty pieces of understanding that, okay, is it happening in the brain? Do they just see letters backwards? These pieces that you've talked about. And we will make sure that all of the links that you talk about today are in the show notes, because I think that's really important to just have that extra resource as a parent to say, "Okay. I want to know what this is. Yes, it's a lifetime. But that doesn't mean it's like this sentence." Right?

Dr. Lauren:

It's not a death sentence.

Hanna:

Right.

Dr. Lauren:

I hope to say that and I get it, as a parent, you want nothing but the best for your child, and you're scared. But it's just this is exactly why we're doing what we're doing now, right?

Hanna:

Exactly.

Dr. Lauren:

Educating. We're staying, here's some ... and I know we're going to get into resources later, which I'm really excited about.

Hanna:

No, and I think the part of it, it's going to be a process even for the periods to understand it because parents don't necessarily ... Okay. In my experience, a lot of parents don't want their kid coded. They don't want their kid to be labeled. They don't want their kid, in some respects they're like, well, I don't want them to be pulled out of the classroom and be missing things. And then on the other hand, they're like, "I want everything that can possibly happen for my child." And so there's this tension within that because you don't want them labeled and yet in the school system, kind of the only way you can get them support is-

Dr. Lauren:

Have them labeled.

Hanna:

Right. Is to say, "But they have this," and then we can do that with that information. Okay. So what would be some-

Dr. Lauren:

Signs and symptoms, right?

Hanna:

Right.

Dr. Lauren:

Yes. I'm there Hanna, I'm there. Okay. So I want to say the Mayo Clinic is great. I don't know. Are you familiar with that in Canada?

Hanna:

Yes.

Dr. Lauren:

Yeah. Okay. So the Mayo Clinic is fantastic on they have dyslexia signs and symptoms. So I've actually done posts on this. I'm only going to focus on before school age. So obviously these are going to be in the show notes, take a look. Why I'm focusing on this is because I believe a child, depending on where you go, can be diagnosed probably as early as three, depending on where you go. Because a lot of it depends on ... I always recommend neuropsychologists because they just have that brain understanding. But some psychologists, neuropsychologists aren't comfortable with diagnosing dyslexia because then they have to know the resources. They kind of have to know the school districts, it's a whole mess.

Hanna:

Yes. But when you think of education and pieces like that, and we compare it and/or think about it in terms of medicine, you wouldn't go to a heart surgeon if you needed a different kind of a doctor for a different part of your body. And that's kind of the same thing, we're looking for, we need the people who are trained and have the resources to be able to diagnose, but then also to intervene and say, "And now here's the next step." So it makes sense when we think about it like that, you would go to the specialist to get a broken leg rather than going to a heart specialist.

Dr. Lauren:

Exactly.

Hanna:

We need to think of that in education, we have to think of who are the specialists that people support.

Dr. Lauren:

Right. And so with those early signs before school age, I'm guessing it's going to be between one and five. I mean, that is like, talking to SLPs, and I'm not an SLP, but there are markers, to say if they're not babbling or they're not doing this, or if they're not doing that, those are early signs. So what the Mayo Clinic states, risk for dyslexia, late talking.

Dr. Lauren:

Now, again, I don't know what late is. That's something where another service provider could tell you if your child's not talking by two. I'm guessing yes, but I mean, my daughter's very verbose and we read to her all the time, so that could be ... I don't know what the baseline is. Learning new words slowly. So if it's taking them a long time to really understand the wording or even the sounds, I mean, that could be a sign.

Dr. Lauren:

Problems forming words correctly, such as reversing sounds and words or confusing sounds that ... words that sound alike. So this one's a tricky one because kids could say pasghetti instead of spaghetti. And I know that some of that is developmentally normal. And I know when kids, like my four year old still reverses her Bs and Ds and all of that, it's not an overall blanket statement of like, "Oh my gosh, my kid's three and still can't get their Bs and Ds," they're other things.

Hanna:

Yes.

Dr. Lauren:

And I think-

Hanna:

Well, I'm going to jump in right here because I work with lots of SLPs. And so one of my friends, Nancy, from Reading with TLC, they came up with a really great acronym roast. And these are the five errors that kids make in speech. And it corresponds later on into reading and spelling. So we've got reversals, omissions, additions, substitutions and transpositions. So those happen in speech, like you said, the Pasghetti or they'll say hangerber, or they'll drop off in the word library or they take out the first R in library or they say Valentime's day in that ... Right? Things like that.

Hanna:

And yes, a lot of it is developmental, they heard it. But all of those things, when you think about it, that's phonological awareness. Did they hear the sound and it's ... Yeah. And then is somebody saying, "Oh, you mean spaghetti," and kind of like reinforcing some of the correct modeling, the correct way to say it. Those are typically those five. And oftentimes we just think of just the reversals.

Dr. Lauren:

That's so true. I love that. I wrote that down. So I'm going to look into that, because that's really critical for parents to know too. And I think that ties into, well, maybe not, but the next two are problem of remembering naming, letters, numbers or colors. So really kind of understanding, I guess that's kind of working memory too. And then the last one is really the difficulty with nursery rhymes and the rhyming game.

Dr. Lauren:

I always think about Bingo. You have to take off letters and kind of know if there was a farmer, had a dug and you have to get those letters off and say that. And so that's something that could be an early indicator of like, hmm, can my child play with these sounds, because really you don't need the letters there. If you can hear the sounds, you can move them and do all that.

Dr. Lauren:

Those are the top five things to look for before age. And then it goes into school age, which I believe is about five to 12 and then teens and adults. Definitely check out the Mayo Clinic's signs and symptoms of dyslexia and then you can also, and another good resource is the Dyslexia Yale Creativity Center. I think that's what it's called, but I mean Yale has a whole thing about dyslexia with Dr. Shaywitz.

Hanna:

Shaywitz, yes. Sally Shaywitz. Okay. How then, once we've, as a parent thinking again, we'll stick with that, up to school age, when they kind of are looking at some of these red flags then they're like, hmm, yeah, okay, maybe that's a yes, I'm seeing that. Would you say first of all then, because I would say personally go and get an assessment from a speech and language therapist because they're the early interventions for speech and language.

Hanna:

And then once they can identify an articulation or language deficit, then we can move on to kind of like the next step. But a lot of times, I know in Canada, in my area, for sure there's free resources for speech therapy for certain age groups. And so especially those really, really early you can access that through Alberta healthcare and pieces like that, so there's some of those pieces. And then lots of times with benefits, they will have funds set aside for speech and language, if you have benefits through work.

Dr. Lauren:

Well, yeah, I mean Canadian healthcare is much better than [inaudible 00:21:06] America. Because that's always a big issue that I know parents are like, "We can't afford $3,000 for this test or whatever the key is."

Hanna:

Exactly. And then from there, I definitely think then a speech pathologist would be able to give more. But I think that that is oftentimes the first line of defense when our kids are really, really small because it's all language based.

Dr. Lauren:

Yeah, I know. Absolutely. I agree with that. And I also recommend talking to the pediatrician too. I know that a lot of pediatricians aren't as well versed, which is like they were just so interesting to me. But I mean, I know that because I actually have a few pediatricians following me and I just find it fascinating because I'm like, "You're a medical doctor working with young kids." So it's like we have to all be on the same page with that. But SLPs always, I think you're right, is a good, especially if there's three or four-

Hanna:

Right. [inaudible 00:22:03].

Dr. Lauren:

... ages, you really do want them in to know, is it like a mouse placement? Is it a hearing thing? And then if it could be, you might want to get an audiologist in there. If you've had too many ear infections, there's so many things that you want to rule out. But this is just a starting point for things to look for.

Hanna:

Exactly. So then once those pieces are kind of in place, how can parents really support their children then? What are ways that they can kind of get involved and start to be an advocate, an early advocate so that we can get some of that early intervention and sort of the prevention, right? When we think again, back to medicine, there's lots of things we know that can prevent some of the ... I'm not saying you can prevent dyslexia, but I'm saying like [inaudible 00:22:52]. Right. That you're preventing from sort of blowing out of proportion. So we're thinking, what are those early ways that parents can then really start to be an advocate for their kids?

Dr. Lauren:

I think first things first is even if you don't have the diagnosis, but you're educating yourselves. I think you need to understand what kind of dyslexia your child is demonstrating. Where is that area of weakness, so you actually know how to get into the root of we really need to hone in on this? I also talk about getting a support group of other parents or moms in your school district or in your area, also other professionals.

Dr. Lauren:

I mean we were just talking about SLPs and really networking with them and really paying attention to not doing the wait and see, really paying attention to really like talking to your child's teacher, talking to another mom or even looking, digging in your family history. Sometimes that can be a huge help.

Dr. Lauren:

I mean, I know I've talked to many parents. I mean they're much older than four or five. I mean, this is what I taught fourth grade. They're like, I see my kid, I struggled just like my kid's struggling now. And I didn't realize that I had this disability. I think really equipping yourself with good communities, I know there are a lot of good books out there for adults to read, to understand who their kids are in the context of what this means today in 2022.

Dr. Lauren:

And I think also finding a true Orton-Gillingham tutor who was certified through the academy, because it is different. You get a different approach, you get a different feel. I know there are a lot of other folks who are very qualified too, but I always have to plug Orton-Gillingham just because I went through the whole process of going through the academy.

Dr. Lauren:

And I think the last thing is knowing, so this is something that my business focuses on. It's not just about the intervention, it's a holistic approach. So with Think Dyslexia, I have a five pillar approach. So we really delve into understanding the DQ, so I call them DQ, dyslexia, dysgraphia and dyscalculia. Understanding special ed, what does that look like in public schools? More so in America because I'm an American educator.

Dr. Lauren:

Really understanding how to advocate, what does that mean? What do you need to know? And then also parenting tips because oftentimes parents don't realize they need to pour into themselves first, so they can then be present for their child at those really difficult IEP meetings, at those really difficult ... I mean it's awful for parents to sit there and have teachers be like, "Your kid's lazy. Your kid's this." When it's really like, there's really truly a misunderstanding here.

Dr. Lauren:

And I always, I know this is another conversation, but it goes at the university level where teachers are just not trained, so it trickles down. And so I just feel like if parents can take a holistic approach of like, I need to know things so I can pour into my child's self-esteem and I can make sure that they're confident and make sure that we're focusing on their strengths because they're going to hear a lot of you can't do this or you're not good at that. Where really it's like, no, actually they're really smart. You just have it tapped into what their strengths are to know how amazing they truly are, so yeah.

Hanna:

Okay. So let's talk about on just our wrapping up here, some resources that parents can access to just start. So you said the Mayo Clinic is a great and we'll put some ... all of this in the show notes, the Overcoming Dyslexia by Sally Shaywitz is an excellent book.

Dr. Lauren:

Right. And IDA, I talked about that.

Hanna:

Yeah, IDA.

Dr. Lauren:

So given that I know you Hanna and your books and I love all of your content. I focused on children's books. I really want people to read these books. I've read all of them. I don't know if you've read them, but the first one I'm going to recommend is Brilliantly Dyslexic. And that's by Liz Trudeau. I believe I pronounce her last name correctly. If I didn't Liz, I'm sorry.

Dr. Lauren:

But I interviewed Liz a while ago and her book is beautiful. Follow her on Instagram, Brilliantly Dyslexic. I love it because there are pictures that are colorful. What I love about it too is there's multiple representation. It's not just white people. And it's just, I feel like any child who is figuring out that this is who I am, will be like, "Oh I love," I mean, it's just so attractive. So that's a book I love.

Dr. Lauren:

Hacking the Code by Gea Meijering and her son is dyslexic. He's an adult now. What I love about that book is it is like Diary of a Wimpy Kid. And it is geared towards probably fifth, sixth graders. And it is just fun. And the illustrator is actually dyslexic, has dyscalculia. It really speaks to, I feel like probably young boys are a little quirky. Awesome.

Dr. Lauren:

Another children's book, this is young adult book called My Name is Layla. And this is by Reyna Gentin. She's the former lawyer turned author. And this is about a middle school girl whose teacher realizes she's dyslexic and her whole world opens up. And then she finds out her dad, her parents are divorced, struggle in school too. And so it's like this coming of age story, which I think is perfect for middle schoolers figuring out who they are in the world.

Dr. Lauren:

Another book is called Climb by Hannah Peckham. And she is I think British. And that one is probably geared towards like toddlers. And it really focuses on finding your inner strength and knowing like an elephant is not made to climb up a tree. It's just so empowering. I think there's a workbook at the end too.

Hanna:

Okay.

Dr. Lauren:

And then the last two, Thank You, Mr. Falker. Love that book. I cry every single time. But that book, and you probably know this one, Hanna, but I mean, it takes place in the 1950s or 60s and this teacher knew how to do multi-sensory like teaching for this young Patricia Polacco. And we're like, this like oh my gosh. I love it.

Hanna:

And Patricia Polacco as an aside note is one of my favorite children's picture book authors.

Dr. Lauren:

She's amazing.

Hanna:

Her books are stunning. The artwork that like she ... yeah, she's an incredible author.

Dr. Lauren:

She's amazing. And the last one, I don't know if you've heard of this one is, If You're So Smart, Why Can't You Spell Mississippi?

Hanna:

Well, I haven't heard that one. Okay. [inaudible 00:29:26].

Dr. Lauren:

Yeah, this one's a book about a sweet girl who is preparing for her spelling test and her dad is reading a newspaper and he's a lawyer and he's basically like, "Go ask your mom to help you." And she's like, "I don't understand. You're a lawyer. Aren't you smart? Why can't you help me?" And so it basically unpacks the fact that her dad has dyslexia and he worked so hard to learn how to read to get where he is. And it's like a family book. I mean, it's like this kid going to her dad being like, "Help me with my homework." He's like, "No, no, no, it's [inaudible 00:29:58]."

Hanna:

They'll help them.

Dr. Lauren:

Yeah. Those are six books that I could think of off the top of my head that I've read and I've used. And I just feel like it really humanizes the kids. It makes them, like there's nothing wrong with you, it's not a death sentence. You just think differently. Let's find representation that you feel good about yourself.

Hanna:

Yeah. I'm thinking off the top of my head, walking into the words is fantastic. And when I read that book with one of my students, they were like, "Hey, that's kind of like me." And there's nothing better than a child seeing themselves on the pages, of the book to be able to say, "I connect with that. That makes sense to me." The book title is escaping my head, but it's in the Rosie Revere collection. And it's the latest one, it's gone off of my brain, but I will make sure that's in the show notes as well. And then there's Brilliantly Be, it's another fantastic one as well. I'll make sure that all of the books that we've talked about for picture books, or there's also Fish in a Tree is fantastic.

Dr. Lauren:

Yes. That like a chapter book I think.

Hanna:

Yeah, it's like a middle grade novel. But yeah, we'll make sure we have all of those. But thank you so much. I would love to have you come back and dive into the next age group because I think that would be-

Dr. Lauren:

Yes.

Hanna:

... like talking about what about when they get into school now? I think that's-

Dr. Lauren:

Yeah.

Hanna:

Thank you so much for your time. I can't wait to chat with you another day. Have a good rest of your day. Thank you.

Dr. Lauren:

You too.

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