Handwriting Tips with Candi Sellers
Handwriting is a crucial skill that many of us take for granted. Whether we are writing in print or cursive, our ability to form letters and words clearly and legibly can affect everything from our engagement in school to our job prospects later in life. And yet, this essential skill has seen a decline in recent years, as teaching methods have shifted away from emphasizing the basics of handwriting towards more advanced concepts such as grammar and sentence structure.
While this shift may be understandable in theory, it does not reflect the reality of modern learning environments.
As anyone who has worked with students knows all too well, many kids struggle with challenges related to fine motor skills, making it difficult
for them to master even basic handwriting techniques. And so, for these students in particular, the continued importance of handwriting cannot be overstated. By increasing their focus on cursive writing and related activities such as tracing and copying exercises, educators can help these students build the physical abilities they need to succeed both academically and professionally.
In this episode, you'll hear me chat with Candi Sellers. Candi is passionate about training professionals, providing academic language therapy to learners of all ages, and creating resources that support literacy.
She is a homeschool mom of a neurodivergent learner, a Fellow of Orton-Gillingham Academy, a Certified Academic Language Therapist-Qualified Instructor with ALTA, a Structured Literacy Dyslexia Specialist with CERI, Instructor of Therapy with IMSLEC, and a licensed teacher in North Carolina. Candi provides Orton-Gillingham teacher training and practicum courses.
Candi is also in private practice providing tutoring and consultation. Having worked in public, private, and homeschool settings, she recognizes that researched-based literacy instruction is critical for all students. She is passionate about helping families and professionals find the tools and measures needed to support all learners, specifically those with learning differences.
Candi shares the importance of handwriting and how it is a crucial part of instruction.
Hanna (00:02):
Hello everyone. And welcome back to another episode of My Literacy Space Podcast. Today, I am talking with Candy Sellers from the Instruction Hub. Hello, Candi!
Candi (00:11):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Hanna (00:13):
I am excited to chat with you today. I think we both share a passion for very similar things in literacy, supporting families, all children, and getting this information into the hands of educators, admin, and specialists as well. Tell us a little bit about your platform and maybe what area specifically you're passionate about.
Candi (00:34):
My roots are in the Orton Gillingham approach. I am a fellow of the academy and a qualified instructor with Alta. I am very passionate about supporting families and their journeys with students with learning differences, training teachers and professionals, and related fields. Just when you think a passion couldn't become any more personal, I am using it with my child who has a unique learning profile. This was my first training in college, and I just decided I was going to continue this path because this is information that everyone needs so that we can bring literacy to everyone. Everyone deserves the right to read and learn and spell. I enjoy creating resources and sharing the things I've learned, and the things I've worked on and haven't worked on. I am just grateful to be in the place that I am in for sure.
Hanna (01:34):
That's amazing! Today, we decided to pick up the topic of handwriting. I wanted to start by defining what we mean by handwriting and its importance. Maybe talking a little bit about the difference between printing versus continuous cursive- handwriting. When we think back to when you and I learned to handwrite, cursive writing was a big part of instruction. It seems to have dwindled over the years. Now we are seeing a big reason why we need to, with specific students, that might be a beneficial way to focus, to help them with their reading and spelling. Let's talk a little bit about what we mean by handwriting and specific cursive. Why is that an important skill that supports decoding and encoding?
Candi (02:25):
When I talk with my participants in my courses, I define handwriting as both manuscript and cursive. I include them both. My goal is automatic and efficient handwriting where they are either formed by printing the letters or by cursive -either one. I think it's very important to focus on that more so by providing that direct, explicit mobile sensory instruction and establishing that they have correct letter formation. That they can move at a speed where they are comfortable and can be successful in written expression and composition. That is where I would start. One of the reasons it is so important is because if it is embedded in our phonics instructor literacy instruction, then students are going to have significant gains in their reading and spelling, and we will talk more about that. I think the focus has come back to it because it has been left out of the standards as of late. What's interesting is it is mentioned a little bit, but the results of handwriting, the composition, the spelling piece, all of that are there. It is part of the standards, but we're not directly and explicitly handling handwriting instruction, which gets us to meet those standards. I am glad to see that there is a renewed interest in it. I think it's going to help us achieve a lot of goals that we are all working towards.
Hanna (03:54):
In Canada, we don't have specific sort of sets of standards. When you're talking about that, can you let us know maybe one or two of the key components when you're talking about leading towards that or it's supporting those standards specifically?
Candi (04:10):
Absolutely. In our standards, handwriting is addressed in first grade. It is not emphasized specifically beyond that. However, we do have certain standards that guide us for composition goals and spelling goals. The student is expected to write certain types of sentences, extended paragraphs, expanded paragraph essays, and so on. But the reality is if we don't go back and address those foundational skills of handwriting, we are not going to necessarily be as successful on the goals of written composition and that sort of thing. We must have these foundational skills for a variety of reasons; not only to support reading and spelling but also for more complex writing skills as well.
Hanna (04:58):
I think the two key things we can pick out from today already from what we've talked about are automaticity and accuracy. That supports when we are talking about decoding and encoding, and the five basic building blocks of reading. We are talking about that fluency piece that is automaticity and accuracy. If it is taking a student a long time to form those letters, or to even think of the letter-sound correspondence, and then to put the symbol down on a page, that's taking up time. It is eating up the way that they are communicating on the page. If they are spelling things or when reading if it's taking that much longer. There is a correlation between being great at spelling the words and supporting the decoding as well. They do go in hand in hand. I like those two key points that give us automaticity and accuracy. Those are our goals. What are some of the pre-writing skills that are necessary for kids?
Candi (06:04):
We sometimes pigeonhole handwriting as just a visual exercise where we're recognizing letters or just something we need to be able to do by hand when it involves a lot of our motor systems. To build and strengthen those areas of motor systems, we need to do something like building our hand and eye coordination, and our motor skills. Build our core strength because our core strength has a lot to do with handwriting and having that stability of our body to be able to hold our body in position.
Hanna (06:33):
Yes. The stamina. Because if you don't have that core strength, the stamina is not there, the bigger muscles are then controlling those little muscles. So we have to have that core. I love that you brought that up.
Candi (06:44):
Tweezer activities playing with Play-doh, getting that wrist extension, doing vertical exercises where we're building shoulder strength and wrist extension as well. Just being aware of spatial components on paper, we are not going to go too in-depth with it with a pre k student who's not writing just yet, but just be aware of where the paper goes, where we can place our arms. I think it's important to help them be aware of their body and build awareness of their body. Just building those things to make sure that they have those, that is something we see, it's not just something our hand does. We are building core strength, shoulder strength, building our finger muscles, all of that. Also, because we're using our language systems, we are building awareness of sounds and letter naming so that we can start linking the two of those together in preparation for putting it in print.
Hanna (07:46):
Yes. I love that. We have got those preprinting skills, the building up of those gross motor and the fine motor skills. When we get to the actual explicit teaching and structured literacy says that we must be explicit and systematic. There are great ways that we can teach kids to think of developmentally appropriate, kinds of lines or curves that are great for a certain age of kids. Even then it's not matched with the age. Sometimes we have older kids that have got some bad habits. It shows up in their writing. I see it when I'm tutoring- it is just taking them that much longer to convey a message because either they are pressing too hard, or the letters are not legible. They are just writing so fast because they are not sure how to spell some of the words. They are throwing something on the paper. And so really taking that time being a little bit more intentional. Some of those key ways that we can support kids to master handwriting would be what?
Candi (08:51):
If we take a multi-sensory or multi-modal approach where we're pulling in all the senses. We are going to provide instruction that provides a model of the form. They are seeing the form visually. We are going to connect it to the sound and the name. Research has shown that there is greater success with reading and spelling and greater success with written composition when we embed it. There is always going to be a success if you provide direct explicit instruction, there's going to be an improvement, but when embedded into our literacy lessons it is going to be even better. I like to do the trace, copy, cover, and close approach when I'm introducing a letter or a form for handwriting. If I am introducing it solely to learn to form the letter, I am going to provide a model. I am going to discuss the forms and the tricky parts of forming the letter. I am going to have them practice that. Then I'm going to have them copy my form because we don't just want to trace, it’s helpful, but it's entry-level. We want to get to where they generate their forming. It is important to cover it and see if they can do it without a model and then close. Is it in their mind's eye? Is it where their body is ready to retrieve that form and write it? I find the trace, copy, cover, and close a very systematic way to introduce that form. If I am doing it for more connecting sound assembly and not just formation, then I'm going to bring in the sound and go towards my structured literacy or Gillham approach of introducing a new phonogram. That is a little more layered. The purpose of seeing it, hearing it, feeling it, seeing how our mouth is formed. That is very helpful to give that very structured and going beyond tracing; giving the chance for them to generate and to take it from short term memory to long term memory.
Hanna (10:50):
Some of the things that I have pointed out to my students and communicated to families as well is that they also must know the vocabulary of what we are talking about when we're printing. Do they know the top, bottom, left, or right? The directionality of print that we have in English, for example, or in a language that they are writing in. Most of the letters in the English alphabet are a continuous movement. Not many of them will have you lift your pencil. Most of them we do with a continuous movement, which supports our learning because we see it as one unit rather than separate, especially letters. I'm thinking of B, E, D, P, and Q that have continuous movement. We can talk about those oral kinesthetic cues that go with it, but then let's talk about the actual placement of the paper, the slant of the paper, the pencil grip, those kinds of things, the technical pieces of the actual printing. What is dysgraphia? I know that that's the term that we can talk about when kids are having difficulty forming letters. Are there other things that we can be aware of either as educators or families, what are the red flags or things that we can think about?
Candi (12:05):
Dysgraphia goes beyond just poor handwriting. Many times, when people think or hear dysgraphia, they think there are just problems with handwriting, but it is a specific learning disability having to do with writing. How we receive a language and how we put it on paper, how we put our thoughts on paper. It could be difficulty with handwriting, difficulty with spelling, and difficulty with composition. Some of the red flags of that are the difficulty forming letters when they are trying to write, avoiding writing, and having big gaps between what they're saying and what they're thinking and what they can put on paper. The same systematic instruction I would use to introduce and support handwriting instruction will support dysgraphia. If you have those concerns, pursue that. So that you can have the remediation and accommodations that are needed while giving that educational reinforcement piece.
Hanna (13:07):
A question that I get quite often is “What if my child is left-handed?”. It's the same, you must adjust the slant of the paper, and watch how their tripod grasp is happening. What are your thoughts about going to support them even just in a physical aspect, where their body is in space, the direct generality? Tell us, what do we know about that impacts kids ready?
Candi (13:39):
I am glad you brought up left-handedness. I have a daughter that is a right-handed writer and a son who is a strong lefty. I feel like we need to pay attention to left-handed instruction. Not just as practitioners and teachers and parents say, “just mirror what I'm doing”, or “just do the opposite of what I'm doing”, practice modeling for them. It is different; slant, grip, body position, all of that is important. If I am a right-handed writer and I'm writing in a manuscript, I'm going to tilt slightly away. If I am writing in cursive, I'm going to go 45 degrees. A left-handed writer should do the same. They should not be tilting their paper, like a righthand writer, or we're going to get that hook. And that's the fatigue and stress, and then they're going to avoid writing. Also, you will see a lot of times when they're writing, that they have that pencil mark down their hand. Mirroring it and they can't see what they're writing. If I am a left-handed writer I'm going to tilt so that it's moving towards where my lefthand is moving smoothly across the page. One way that you can position that easily is to take the bottom of your paper and fold it up just gently so that it's running parallel to the table, not right up against it, but parallel, or I like to do what I call a paper parking lot where I use painters’ tape or that new decorative tape to form
Hanna (15:01):
Yes. Washi tape.
Candi (15:02):
Just place it, and pop it in there. The grip is going to be important as well. A left-handed writer is going to, we have that tripod, a grasp for a right-handed writer, but for a left-handed writer, it's advised that they hold it up just a bit further than right down on the bottom, where we would for a right-handed writer.
Candi (15:22):
Also, just across the board, either left-handed or right-handed writers. We want them in the 90, 90, 90 positions where our hips are at a 90-degree angle, our knees are at a 90-degree angle and our ankles are at a 90-degree angle. Just so that they have that stability. They have that security. Their body is nice and calm, and ready. For both, it is very important. And again, the main piece for the left-hand writer is not to try to make them mirror, but to model. Modeling's important for everybody.
Hanna (15:59):
One thing that I think has worked well is reminding them of that helper’s hand. We have got a hand that does the functional piece with the pencil or whatever writing utensil that we are using, but what is that other hand doing? It is stabilizing our body a little bit. Holding, putting your elbow on the table, holding your body a little bit more upright, then it's holding that paper. I see so many kids, they have got one hand in their pocket which is why the page is moving and they get frustrated. I notice when kids are coloring, having a place where they have the container to hold on to, rather than allowing the pencil or crayons to roll all over. It's a little bit of tweaking.
Hanna (16:46):
Just the organizational piece of it so that there is less time spent fiddling around with things and more time focused on the functionality. And again, when we come back to that automaticity and accuracy piece, all the time is spent doing the actual writing rather than how do I form this? Is my pencil in the right spot? If those things are automatic, you get much better output for writing. I want to come back to the point where we were talking about those vertical experiences, on a whiteboard, or I've been showing lately on Instagram. It doesn't always when we're spelling stuff at first, especially when kids are struggling with print, have some of those other multi-sensory ways to be able to spell the words. We don't have to force the five and six-year-old at the very beginning, we can do a lot of those decoding and encoding activities, still going to that vertical space where then we might not be using a whiteboard marker, but we're using something where we're working on a whiteboard, an easel or something like that.
Hanna (17:50):
Another way that we can support kids than at a desk is a slant board. That can be, it does not have to be fancy or expensive, it can be a three and a half-inch binder that you tape the paper on the top with painter's tape or washi tape, which comes off, just gives them that little bit of stability. I find it helps when it is raised a little bit for their vision to see what they are looking at. Talk about things like that? Why does vertical help us in that respect of even just like a slope or it's just a little bit raised off the table? Is it because of the visually seeing what we are now writing on the paper? Is it that it puts it into perspective for us? Is it that it builds our muscles? What are your thoughts on that?
Candi (18:37):
I think it's a lot of things. The visual piece is important. I have a child with ocular motor dysfunction. The visual piece and how that plays into seeing things on a paper, the spatial awareness, how the lines move, that sort of thing. There are a lot of strategies that kind of overlap with learning differences that are effective across the board. Using a slant board also helps with just the muscle tension, wrist extension, and being able to get your arms moving. It does help with the visual piece. I like the vertical piece as well because it not only builds strength, it gives their planted body stability as they're doing an activity, but it's also a great way to give release and support to that attentional side too. We can't expect students to sit down and practice handwriting perfectly in a chair all the time. Stable writing positions, that’s realistic. We can still accomplish these goals. Let's get them up and do it on a vertical surface.
Hanna (19:40):
I agree.
Candi (19:41):
Pulling in those big, gross motor movements too. Like we want to start large and with the gross motor, so our bodies are aware of how to make these forms and then we transfer it to fine motor writing and on paper.
Hanna (19:53):
Yes. I know lots of times when I've worked specifically with OTs as well, they've even suggested occupational therapy. It is laying down on kids' tummies and having a good, hard surface, and then putting their paper there. And again, their whole body then is supported basically by the floor. They are just propped up a bit on their elbows. I wish you could see; we are acting this out as we are talking, we are moving. You are just balancing on your tummy, and you've got that support of the floor. So again, they can wiggle a little bit, but it is more stable. That’s the bigger piece when we can help them with those stability pieces. Pencil grips. Yes or no. Are you a fan of a certain one?
Candi (20:37):
I am going to give the help that someone annoying OG answer or human answer. And that is, it depends. I don't think pencil grips are universal, but I do think they're helpful for some students. I think there's a variety of pencil grips. I like to use what is called B pencil grip in gumbo and regular size. I have used ones that are more like a hair tie that is rolled up on the end of it just to give some spacing and practical workspace there. I think they can be a helpful tool. I think you need to find the one that works for your child or your student. We need to be flexible and know that just teaching that correct grip, doing some certain practices, and doing things like the pension flip to establish where that pencil goes are helpful tools too.
Hanna (21:33):
Explain that flip that you were just talking about. I think that that's been such a good trick to show kids they like it because I'll say, “Watch this trick!”. They say “Whoa!” and get the pencil right in their hands. Talk about that.
Candi (21:48):
It works for your left-handed writer or your right-handed writer. You are going to take your pencil and put it directly in front of you on the table where the point is pointing to your belly button is what I like to tell them. They take their index finger and their thumb and pinch the bottom of it and then literally flip it up and it will land in between your thumb and your index finger. I also like to do the Ferris wheel where they take their writing hand and hold their pencil with the tip. They hold it on the tip and then they take their non-writing hand and move the pencil and flip it up like a Ferris wheel. It lands break-in that webspace too. A great strategy for a teacher, or if you're working with a group and you don't want to call out a student with the incorrect pencil grip is to say, “All right, let's pinch and flip”. Everybody puts it on their table. Everybody picks it up and then flips it back in a position.
Hanna (22:38):
That is great. I love that addressing everybody just to do like a quick reminder is so great for that and helps everybody to do a little quick check-in. Some of the other tips that I've had from the occupational therapists as well is to put a little palm in the palm of their hand things so that when they're using that pencil, they are having to hold on with the other fingers that aren't necessary and moving the pencil. They are just moving their fingers, not their whole arm. They are having to hold onto that or a half of the tissue. Just roll up a Kleenex or something like that. Some other beneficial things are breaking crayons in half or short golf pencils. They will not have to manipulate the whole pencil. Fancy pencils that have things dangling on the end manipulate the weight of the pencil.
Hanna (23:38):
Sometimes it's just too much or we give them pencils that are inadequate. We think a big round one will be great. It is too round for five-year-old, six-year-old fingers. It is awareness of the physical materials that we are giving them to do the task so that it becomes automatic and accurate. Anything else, other tips, or tricks that you have learned that support handwriting? We have not talked about cursive writing. Why is that a great option for a lot of kids?
Candi (24:14):
You might hear the discussion of print versus cursive. And really if we get into the research, it is inconclusive for kind of your mainstream student. However, for a student who has challenges with handwriting or with learning differences, cursive is a very helpful tool. A couple of reasons are, depending on the approach you use and the one that I like to use, all of the cursive letters start at the same point on the line. It takes out the guesswork of where I'm going to put it and helps with the spatial issues. It helps them cluster words or forms appropriately. It helps with facing issues we see many times. It is one continuous motion left so there are fewer starts and stops. That kind of eliminates confusion there. And it is one fluid motion too. Typically, they don't get as fatigued. It is easier for them to remember the form because there is no starting, stopping, or interrupting as they are forming. Those are just a couple of reasons that are helpful for students. Writing is an activity where your brain is on cognitive overload. If we can make the writing P automatic, take out the guesswork of do I, is that a reversal, that sort of thing, right? Put it on the paper. Let's give them any tool possible to make them feel supported and successful.
Hanna (25:40):
I have always loved the Handwriting Without Tears? I know it's now called Learning Without Tears. Is there another approach that you have used for talking about developmentally, what lines and curves they must know what a diagonal line looks like or what is there another approach that you have used?
Candi (26:00):
I have typically used Diana Hanbury King's handwriting. She has a learning print and a learning cursive. All of her forms start at the same spot on the line for cursive. Then for both print and cursive, she has grouped them according to form and form families so that those stroke families are a little bit easier to remember and to practice and review and reinforce. She also begins with those prewriting, I didn't mention this enough in our conversation about prewriting skills, as you were saying, forming those line lines, being able to the letters, the lines, the motions that we would use, whether it's the making the mountains or the swing ups and that sort of thing. There is a lot of prewriting practice. She has warmups too in those. That's typically the Writing curriculum that I use. She has a little bit more developmentally appropriate for upper elementary and adolescence. that's her writing skills in book two. It's a combination of both.
Hanna (27:00):
Yes. Earlier I alluded to you must have that vocabulary. They need to know the directionality, like even clockwise counterclockwise, top-bottom, diagonal, left to right. Those are critical because those are prompts that we can also use when a kid pauses. I see them, they're about to write a K this is a tall standing line and you're using that same language. It's important to pick something that has that strong verbal queuing system. That you can give them that as a prompt but remember always that those scaffolds are supposed to be there like temporarily. They must be working towards that automaticity. So that the writing, like you, are saying when they're now communicating a whole sentence, a whole thought, and now we must write a paragraph it's ever so tedious when each little letter real effort to put in, at what point do we say?
Hanna (27:59):
I've asked this question to lots of people and there are lots of thoughts out there, at what point do we just say this kid is 11 years old and we just need some assistive technology. We want to use speech to text, or we're going to use some other accommodations, Ascribe or something because it is just becoming so difficult. They have all these beautiful ideas in their brain and when do we call it quits? Sometimes it's hard to say. Somebody asked me yesterday, do you correct every single time that they draw the circle the wrong way or make the D with the line first. You are in the minute. Maybe not every single time, but I'm going to try to correct as many times and come back to practice time because I realize they can do it in isolation. Go ahead and write me a D and they'll draw this beautiful magic C and then they've got the lineup and it's a continuous line down. And then suddenly, they go to write the word dog and they've got a B, things like that. Is there a point where we just say, okay, technology is what we're going to go for?
Candi (29:16):
I think we are in an age, and I like this new term that's coming out in recent research of hybrid writers or hybrid composers, where they need to be efficient with word processing and assistive technology. But also, we want them to be as efficient as possible with handwriting. Keeping in mind, emotionally sound instruction where we're not going to push them to the point of frustration, but we need them to be able to do both. I directly and explicitly teach the keyboard the same way as with handwriting, starting in first grade. Diana King has an approach for that too so that they have those skills and they're learning to sequence letters correctly on the keyboard and that sort of thing. I think it can be a very helpful tool. I feel like assisted technology is something we need to integrate. I keep the handwriting going for as long as possible.
Candi (30:05):
If I have a student who does have dysgraphia, or it does become a point of frustration where it's just impeding learning and they're not available for learning because of the handwriting. I would, at that point start implementing more assistive technology, especially if we're doing longer composition. If they're okay spelling at the single word level, but if we're going into writing a paragraph or an essay and the writing is just too much at that point, of course, I would start pulling the pieces. But I think the key there is systematic instruction and keyboard.
Candi (30:38):
It is hard for me to give up the handwriting because the handwriting does make such a big impact, linking the symbols to the sounds. It does involve so many of our systems, our brain networking, and our language systems. And a lot of those things, those connections happen more there than they do with keyboarding. It is hard for me to give that up, but at the same time, it is a tool that's helpful. When used systematically can be, great support for our students. I start teaching it early and then start with my upper elementary middle school. And of course, in high school, I want to teach them to use it correctly.
Hanna (31:15):
One of the points that I've brought up many times, is that research is still showing us, that even when you're studying, it's better to be writing your notes out, writing pieces out. It comes back to that. It's almost like a tactile feedback piece where you're feeling the words entering the page and we type way faster. I can type 115, 120 words a minute. That information is not necessarily going in and solidifying unless I'm physically doing something about it. Typing is not necessarily a multisensory way. Our brains, maybe in 5,000 years will be realized as our brains have adapted because of all the technology, but it's still so much a part of embedding that information and helping us is physically writing it out. I think that it is critical to talk about. Are there any other places or resources or things you want to just wrap up our episode today?
Candi (32:22):
For parents, it's important to be aware of any concerns that you see with writing even early or even those pre-writing skills, like hard to hold difficulty, picking up things. Just awareness for families, but also practice. There are lots of resources online for these pre-writing exercises and OTs that have wonderful blogs. I had a guest OT share some of the things she did with my child on my blog. Being proactive instead of reactive. For teachers and tutors, I mentioned Diana King. William van Cleve has a lot of great information on handwriting. He has some information on his website. Beverly Wolf has a lot of great books and resources. She's done a lot of research with Dr. Berninger on writing and handwriting and their impact on learning. I would pursue those. Dr. Steve Graham, who just spoke at the OGA conference. He has a lot of great information research as well.
Hanna (33:33):
I think when we're talking back to making it multi-sensory, like play, get kids playing, and doing lots. One of the reasons I know that I can type fast was that I played piano as a kid. You have that eye, hand coordination, and the dexterity of moving and playing octaves. I just can-do things fast like that. Kids who don't have a lot of that practice hands-on those big game things where you're playing manipulating things or playing in Play-doh. We used to pretend we were washing dishes, digging in the mud, that kind of play. Also really, we are not sitting there for half an hour having this. Now we're going to write 22 letters. It's like building up those muscles and doing it through lots of fun. Games like Tic Tac Toe where you are working on or making the X and an O. They must learn how to draw the little grid for the X and O game or the tally marks in games like that. I think it is just a little tiny piece of strengthening that makes it much more fun.
Hanna (34:46):
And that's another way, even in tutoring, you can target some of those. The other day I was doing instead of X's and O's we did B’s and D's. My student was the B and I had to be the D and then we swapped jobs. That was just a fun way to target, but it wasn't like lines and lines and lines of writing. It was a fun way. It reminded me that he was having so much fun. And why was I always, you know, we don't think that we must think a little bit outside the box for some of those kids as well to just get them printing. So, thank you so much for popping on today and just having a chat with me. I know this will be beneficial to so many people, and it will just be a place where people can come and keep getting information. I appreciate your time so much.
Candi (35:32):
Thank you.
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